What Happened To "MADE IN THE USA"?

[opus37]

I hope there isn't a misunderstanding about Kanstul Tubas. Yes, they are more expensive than a JinBao, but so are Mirraphone, B&S, Yamaha, and a host of other tubas. Those are all about the same price. I put the Kanstul tubas as comparable quality and sound to these more expensive tubas. The title of this thread is "What happened to Made in the USA?". Well, of all these more expensive tubas, Kanstul is 100% made in the USA. For those than have tried American Tubas, such as King and Conn, and have not liked them, have you tried a Kanstul? The point of all this is there are pockets of good stuff made in the USA. It is harder and harder to find. (Try finding hardware or clothing that is made in the USA.)

[Donn]

(Try finding hardware or clothing that is made in the USA.)

Hardware & clothing are bright spots compared to some things. Of course, subject to some details - for clothing for example, it helps if you're a lumberjack, or at least male. Week before last I got some nice elk hide work gloves made less than 100 miles from here, $37 at the lumber yard. You could probably get ill fitting gloves of thin cowhide from China for a fraction of the price, but as a tuba player you're an artist and must care for your fingers!

It also helps if you can buy via mail order. That might be what's going to save indigenous manufacturing from complete extinction, this ability to sell goods online to a highly dispersed fraction of the population that cares. I guess that applies to tubas as well, but not to the same degree - as far as I know, the big box stores aren't a major factor in the tuba market, so it isn't like small independent manufacturers are working around a market they're shut out of.

[Donn]

I am *not* going to sift through this entire, old, resurrected thread to see whether anyone else has simply made the following observation. I will just state it: Does anyone see the irony here? We have a board user who is claiming that the term "Made in the USA" holds so much value for him, personally, yet who is a huge proponent of "Made in China" tubas. Sorry, JJ. I call BS on this.

I don't see it. The post with which he started the thread, ends with:

Don't get me wrong--I'm not bashing other countries here--I just want to know why my own country has apparently lost the ability to produce high quality tubas today.

That was over 3 years ago, by the way. I haven't been following the Kanstul story, maybe, today, that would put a slightly different complexion on US tubas. But from reading his original post, it's entirely consistent if he has a tuba that wasn't made in the US.

For sure, if more people who care about this situation in general, were to put their money where their mouth is and buy US-manufactured goods, it's easy to imagine that could lead to more US made tubas. But as elaborated in the older parts of the thread, which you may as well read, there are other factors as well. TUBAD83 generally seems to take the "it's a global economy" line on this question, which doesn't work for me so much, but again, it's consistent.

[The Big Ben]

Actually, human waste, if properly treated can be used as fertilizer. A common practice is for companies who pump out septic systems to contract with local farmers to spread the product on the farmers fields.

When I was a wee youth, our family had a friend who worked at one of the big sewage treatment plants in Seattle. The plant treated the sewage, took the solids out and the water went back into the bay. Those solids were allowed to solidify and were used for fertilizer. My father, one of the original organic gardeners, rented a trailer and brought home two loads and plopped them down in the back yard. Over the period of about three weeks, he wheelbarrowed the stuff all over the yard and watered it in. I was about 6 at the time and found the whole thing traumatic especially trying to explain to my friends what he was doing. However, it was better than the time he got uncomposted chicken manure and spread that around. Which is another story...

I've read that many products are coming back to the USA. Being up here in Boeing Country, industry is finding that outsourcing to the lowest bidder is not always a good idea.

[Dan Schultz]

A fellow showed up at community band a couple of weeks ago with a bari sax. He mentioned that it was a Buescher 400. I just assumed it was a vintage restored horn and didn't take the time to look it closer. I saw the horn again Saturday and asked to have a close look at it. The bell is engraved Buescher but it appears to be the Selmer copy and is brand new. I couldn't find anything on The Web by way of a listing for a new Buescher bari sax. Conn-Selmer lists one on their parts web site but there's no indication of whether it's an old or new model. But... by the looks of the few parts available the C-S listing is only a few parts that are still available for the older ones.

Anyone know details?

[Donn]

Know only what I read - there was a made in Taiwan Selmer copy. Selmer as you know bought the brand a long time ago, but this was apparently a recent experiment, maybe 2002 and abandoned after a couple years. They used a model number scheme like BU-3 soprano, BU-4 alto ... BU-6 baritone. I wouldn't have expected a recent "400", from what I read.

[Donn]

Selmer's just the ordinary soulless economic machine, it's a miracle when any good at all comes from that kind of place.

I suppose though that they bought Buescher fair and square. Maybe the first of a decade sell-outs. Olds to Norlin, H N White to some guy who would eventually sell out to UMI, Martin and Reynolds to the "Richards Music Corporation", Holton to Leblanc, Conn to MacMillan ... In 1960, a dozen or so musical instrument manufacturers, some of them at the peak of their game, most run by founders or relatives. By 1972, that crowd had all had sold out, and their successors turned to mediocrity in every case - Selmer or whoever, all cut from the same cloth. Whatever brought this about was already at work in the early '60s.

[Donn]

I don't see Selmer's most fierce competitors as those brands now under their umbrella.

? Certainly not after 1960.

[Donn]

Coincidentally I just now happened to be reading about Italian woodwind manufacturers, particularly Rampone & Cazzani. In the 19th century they were manufacturing woodwinds in a little village in the Alps that currently has a population of fewer than 500 people, using water driven machinery and local woods, but they got big and in the '60s they were making saxophones for export, under their own name and stencils.

When that turned sour under competition from Asia, apparently Selmer didn't come knocking, so instead under new ownership they went back to making high quality, distinctive, original design instruments in their little village, and now it's the unusual case where if you're looking at a Rampone & Cazzani instrument, you hope it's after 1990. I suppose in some ways there might a parallel here with Kanstul.

[bigtubby]

Jinbao again, only with a higher markup

Is the 4/4 rotary BBb really made by Tempest in the USA? The American company that to my knowledge was most prominent in making rotary tubas was King. And these tubas look more out of the German/Czech tradition than anything near the rotary King tubas:

http://www.tempestmusicalinstruments.co ... gory_id=37

Klaus

FWIW there is one of these on ebay right now with a Buy it Now price of $3295.00 including case and free shipping. Thinking at first that it was a CBB 683-4 stencil (it isn't) I wrote and asked the seller if "Prague Model" is built in the Czech Republic. The response was: "You got it!!". I don't see a matching model on Cerveny's site.

[bigtubby]

a well-known south texas whole-seller of various and sundry wind instruments since the Mirafone/California days

It's the Jinbao ($1500 retail elsewhere) Hirsbrunner copy...yes...??

They claimed Czech Republic in their response on ebay. <Shrugs>

If it were a Cerveny or something comparable to a 683 that would be a decent price ... sort of weird though that the BIN price is a couple hundred under their catalog price plus throwing in shipping and paying the ebay FVF.

[Dan Schultz]

....They claimed Czech Republic in their response on ebay. ....

Klaus will correct me if I'm wrong. But.... I don't think there hasn't been a 'Czech Republic' for many years.

This comment is right up there with "German Engineering" and "Frankfort" monikers used by Laabs Music.

[bigtubby]

....They claimed Czech Republic in their response on ebay. ....

Klaus will correct me if I'm wrong. But.... I don't think there hasn't been a 'Czech Republic' for many years.

To be clear, "Czech Republic" was my term, I asked if the "Prague" model was built in the Czech Republic.

[sidetrack]
came from reading Wikipedia trying to get at least a vague date on my Amati tuba. Wikipedia says:

Formation
- Principality of Bohemia c. 870
- Kingdom of Bohemia 1198
- Czechoslovakia 28 October 1918
- Czech Socialist Republic 1 January 1969
- Czech Republic 1 January 1993

Since they didn't (apparently still don't) serialize instruments, one of what I thought might be a characteristic mark was the "Made in Czecho Slovakia" stamp in the receiver of my Amati. Using the Wikipedia information above that would suggest older than 1970 but the instrument does not look that old.
[/sidetrack]

Back to the Tempest tuba, the response from ebay user "tempestmusical" was emphatically positive to my question about being manufactured in the Czech Republic.

This comment is right up there with "German Engineering" and "Frankfort" monikers used by Laabs Music.

And RE: Laabs, I've been a bit skeptical about them simply because of their terminology. "Schiller Frankfurt Germany" and "American Heritage" used to market 100% Chinese instruments???

Reminds me of when GM stopped importing Opels from Germany in the late 70's when exchange rates made them too expensive (the 1900 series were great cars). They filled that niche with generic little Isuzu econoboxes. Some of them were labeled "Buick Opel Rallye". A fellow for whom I had worked and who was a pro rally driver used to quip: "There is a car that claims to be three things that it isn't."

[The Big Ben]

Reminds me of when GM stopped importing Opels from Germany in the late 70's when exchange rates made them too expensive (the 1900 series were great cars). They filled that niche with generic little Isuzu econoboxes. Some of them were labeled "Buick Opel Rallye". A fellow for whom I had worked and who was a pro rally driver used to quip: "There is a car that claims to be three things that it isn't."

What a disappointment. A friend wore out her German Opel so bought a new "Opel" based on her previous experience. Yes, she knew it was Japanese but, again, a Datsun 510 was a hot little car so.... She had it six months and traded it off on a .... low mileage used German Opel.

[Donn]

Back to the Tempest tuba, the response from ebay user "tempestmusical" was emphatically positive to my question about being manufactured in the Czech Republic.

When he said "You got it!!"? That is indeed emphatically positive, thanks to the double exclamation marks, but it also has the gratuitous ambiguity that smells of weasel to me. You got what? The misdirection they intended you to get? I don't know, if it isn't true then he's lying either way, but I do like it when people can answer "yes" or "no" to a yes or no question.

Anyway ... on Amazon,

Lee Hipp of the San Antonio Symphony says "there is no better BBb tuba to be found."

So ... there you go.

[bigtubby]

Reminds me of when GM stopped importing Opels from Germany in the late 70's when exchange rates made them too expensive (the 1900 series were great cars). They filled that niche with generic little Isuzu econoboxes. Some of them were labeled "Buick Opel Rallye". A fellow for whom I had worked and who was a pro rally driver used to quip: "There is a car that claims to be three things that it isn't."

What a disappointment. A friend wore out her German Opel so bought a new "Opel" based on her previous experience. Yes, she knew it was Japanese but, again, a Datsun 510 was a hot little car so....

The Isuzu "Opel" cars were more comparable to a Datsun B210 but without the build quality. The friend I quoted campaigned a (old style, independent rear end) 510 for years in the MONY pro rally series. 240hp at the rear wheels triple ess hand built engine; straight cut five speed; lots O'plastic and aluminum body panels ... different machine

She had it six months and traded it off on a .... low mileage used German Opel.

The Manta (the actual Gran Turismo of the 1900 series as opposed to the "GT" which was an ungodly heavy mini-Corvette) turned out to be too good. After one year (IIRC) it was dropped from eligibility in the SCCA showroom stock class because it gobbled everything else's lunch in that first year.

[tbn.al]

[quote="bigtubby]
The Manta (the actual Gran Turismo of the 1900 series as opposed to the "GT" which was an ungodly heavy mini-Corvette) turned out to be too good. After one year (IIRC) it was dropped from eligibility in the SCCA showroom stock class because it gobbled everything else's lunch in that first year.[/quote]

Wasn't that the TE2800 version?

[bigtubby]

The Manta (the actual Gran Turismo of the 1900 series as opposed to the "GT" which was an ungodly heavy mini-Corvette) turned out to be too good. After one year (IIRC) it was dropped from eligibility in the SCCA showroom stock class because it gobbled everything else's lunch in that first year.

Wasn't that the TE2800 version?

While I may be wrong (and although unmarried for years, I still occasionally find myself to be wrong ) I recall that it was the regular Opel Manta 1.9L. The sedan was provided a Showroom Stock qualification (there was also a station wagon along with the GT that shared this power train).

I can't imagine that an aftermarket limited production car like the TE2800 would ever have been considered for Showroom Stock. SS was conceived as a budget racing class and consisted mainly of economy cars including Pintos and the like.