Greyhound reliability

[Michael Bush]

The first few times it's hard to get your head around the fact that Greyhound is the safest, best option. After a half-dozen or so safe transactions, combined with a few wrinkled bells and worse courtesy of UPS, confidence builds. Like some others in this thread, I now wouldn't dream of shipping any other way, except in my own car. (Well, I would dream of it after all, and I have done it even after knowing better, to my regret.) Find Norm Pearson's instructions in a thread on here for packing, do that, and take it to the Greyhound station. That gives you the best chance (other than your own car) of having no regrets.

[Donn]

..... I think carriers like this understand that they can't routinely trash the items entrusted to them, if they want to keep the business.

If UPS damages an item that you packed personally, you can count on them finding a way of absolving themselves of any liability.

Right, but it barely matters whether they make the effort to do this. The bit you quote above is about truck carriers. UPS is one of the parcel services I mentioned, for whom that's immaterial, as people will continue to use them regardless. UPS is the most convenient and cheapest? Then they'll get the job. (Same with airlines. Baggage brutality? We deplore it in principle, but if a carrier took it upon themselves to earn a better reputation for baggage handling, they'd have to do it for free, because the only thing that counts when we're buying tickets is the price.)

No one in their right mind would send that tuba via UPS. (By the way, I'm a little sore about this, having recently received a tuba from someone who did exactly that. They actually did a fair job with what they had, but of course there was damage.) This time it isn't about UPS/FedEx vs. Greyhound/Amtrak, it's whether there's a decent alternative.

[Aglenntuba]

I just purchased and am awaiting a tuba that was masterfully rebuilt by Norm Epley after being dropped 30 ft off a loading dock. If you haven't guessed yet, I'll be picking it up from the Greyhound station.

[roweenie]

The bit you quote above is about truck carriers.

Donn, you are correct and I apologize. I misunderstood your statements, especially since when UPS delivers here, it comes in a truck  

This time it isn't about UPS/FedEx vs. Greyhound/Amtrak, it's whether there's a decent alternative.

This is absolutely correct.

[Dan Tuba]

I have used Greyhound several times without any damage to the tubas. I have used Fed Ex to ship a tuba before they had strict size limits. The tuba was packed in a large blue anvil flight case(huge rectangular case). The tuba was insured. When I went to pick the tuba up from fed ex, they brought out a cardbord box that was open. What I found in the box were pieces of the case and my tuba completely flattened, like a car had run over it...After months of "investigating," and aggressive negotiations, I finally received the insurance check. The investigation found that there was a mishap while moving around shipments and "something" was dropped on my tuba.

[roweenie]

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but I'm really nervous about using Greyhound to ship an instrument that I recently sold.
I read online that if it's sent priority, that it can be loosely tracked, but that doesn't sit well with me

Does anyone have any horror stories?

How far does the horn need to be shipped? Maybe you can "split the difference" in distance with the buyer?

If I were buying a valuable horn, I actually would be the one asking this of the seller (doesn't the buyer usually accept the risks in such a transaction?)

[Kevin_Iaquinto]

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but I'm really nervous about using Greyhound to ship an instrument that I recently sold.
I read online that if it's sent priority, that it can be loosely tracked, but that doesn't sit well with me

Does anyone have any horror stories?

How far does the horn need to be shipped? Maybe you can "split the difference" in distance with the buyer?

If I were buying a valuable horn, I actually would be the one asking this of the seller (doesn't the buyer usually accept the risks in such a transaction?)

It needs to go from Santa clarita california to mcallan texas. I've been thinking about amtrak ad they seem to have more reliable tracking.

[David Richoux]

I have used Greyhound several times, usually with no big problems. Tracking is a joke, and only really works a bit if the shipment is within your Zone (US is three zones, by the way - unless they have changed things.)

Pack it well, in a box that is big enough to provide enough foam and air gap space. Remember that the box will move on down the road on a "Space Available" system and you will have no real way of knowing where it is or when it will be on the next bus heading in the general direction of the final destination. But it does get there, eventually - so don't freak out if it takes 2-3 weeks (or even a month) to get delivered cross country. Sometimes it only takes a few days, but you never can predict.

[Donn]

If Amtrak is an option, I believe it's a pretty respectable one. One thing you kind of have to be prepared for, in my limited experience, is that you can't really be prepared for what's going to happen when you get to the counter. You can call their 1-800 and get a story, or several different stories if you call back, and then when you get there you may get another one, and then yet another when the supervisor gets off break and comes to rescue you. One thing I would suggest is that you do not mark it "FRAGILE", as this will automatically disqualify it for shipping, but I may remember that wrong. It has been a few years.

[bort]

Question -- if you have "professional" insurance (like Clarion... not sure how to categorize that), would that cover shipping damage?

I will say though, after packing and shipping 5 or 6 tubas on my own and using UPS Ground, it's not cheap, but it has worked flawlessly.

Only trouble I ever had was receiving a tuba which was poorly.packed, and shipped by UPS. The packing was so bad, it's a wonder the damage wasn't worse. UPS cut me a large, check to cover the damage, because they did the poor packaging themselves. It worked out ok in the end, but it was a huge hassle.

Best of all though was using a "tuba taxi" to get a horn to/from NYC and Kentucky. I found someone here who was already making the trip close enough to those places, and paid gas money for the tubas to tag along in his truck. It was awesome, and what I would consider an ideal situation.

California to Texas with a BAT is going to be tricky. It's still winter break though, maybe a college kid would want to do a road trip and make a few bucks?

[Kevin_Iaquinto]

I have the horn packed in a miraphone box ready to withstand WW3. I just can't ship something this important off and just hope that it gets there on time. I know a LOT of people here use greyhound but they just don't seem like a very good service from a customer service standpoint.

[tubazach07]

I have used ABF freight and couldn't be happier. I highly suggest them if you are shipping an tuba. I packed the tuba myself and they came to my house and picked it up and put it on a pallet.

[ghmerrill]

Big US mail-order retailers use truck freight, don't they? When I bought a tuba like that quite a long time ago, it came on a truck. Not strapped to a pallet, just a huge box with a truckload of foam pellets, but I think carriers like this understand that they can't routinely trash the items entrusted to them, if they want to keep the business.

Same with me -- when I bought my Cerveny in the early 90s. It was packed in a wooden crate with "excelsior" packing material (pre-foam peanuts) and I think could have withstood a small nuclear blast. It was sent truck freight to a depot about 20 miles from me, and I just went and picked it up.

I've shipped other stuff truck freight (like my 5hp band saw motor back and forth to Grizzly), and the experience has always been very easy and efficient.

I suspect that most people don't consider the truck freight option just because they're not accustomed to it, and dealing with a trucking company doesn't seem as easy and "friendly" to them as dealing with more of a "retail" place. But in my experience they're in fact more pleasant, more competent, and more efficient.

No knock on Greyhound. I've received instruments via Greyhound with no problems -- but getting to and from the Greyhound depot (e.g., in central Durham) has been a bit more of a hassle than getting to and from the freight depots.

[pgym]

Yeah, but at leaSt ittl be insured

Wanna bet?

You might want to read the fine print in FedEx's Ground Tariff Terms and Conditions, particularly the section on Declared Value and Limits of Liability.

Some excerpts:

10. Declared Value and Limits of Liability (Not Insurance Coverage)

A. FedEx Ground liability with regard to any package is limited to the sum of $100 unless a higher value is declared at time of tender and a greater charge paid as provided in the FedEx Service Guide.

Commentary: Our maximum liability is $100.

B. The declared value of any package represents our maximum liability in connection with a package, including, but not limited to, any loss, damage, delay, misdelivery, nondelivery, misinformation, any failure to provide information, or misdelivery of information. Exposure to and risk of any loss in excess of the declared value is either assumed by the shipper or transferred by the shipper to an insurance carrier through the purchase of an insurance policy. The shipper should contact an insurance agent or broker if insurance coverage is desired. FEDEX GROUND DOES NOT PROVIDE INSURANCE COVERAGE OF ANY KIND. [Capitalized in T&C document]

Commentary: It doesn't matter what the person at the counter says, your package is not insured.

C. In cases where the shipper declares or agrees in writing that the property being shipped is released to a value exceeding $100 per package or article not enclosed in a package, an additional charge for each $100 or fraction thereof of total valuation will be assessed to which the base rate applies, up to a maximum declared value of $50,000 per package.

Commentary: You can PAY FOR a declared value or more than $100, BUT ...

D. Packages containing all or part of the following items are limited to a maximum declared value of $1,000:

...

3. Any commodity that by its inherent nature is particularly susceptible to damage or the market value of which is particularly variable or difficult to ascertain. [Commentary: like a tuba]

...

12. Guitars and other musical instruments that are more than 20 years old, and customized or personalized musical instruments. [commentary: like a tuba]

Commentary: We don't care HOW much you paid for that tuba; what WE say goes, and WE say it's worth no more than $1000.

E. ANY EFFORT TO DECLARE A VALUE IN EXCESS OF THE MAXIMUMS ALLOWED IN THE FEDEX SERVICE GUIDE IS NULL AND VOID. OUR ACCEPTANCE FOR CARRIAGE OF ANY PACKAGE BEARING A DECLARED VALUE IN EXCESS OF THE ALLOWED MAXIMUMS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A WAIVER OF ANY PROVISION OF THE FEDEX SERVICE GUIDE AS TO SUCH PACKAGE. [Capitalized in T&C document]

Commentary: If you want to declare a value of $15,000, go right ahead. We'll charge you for $15,000 declared value, but the actual declared value is still only $1000.

F. REGARDLESS OF THE DECLARED VALUE OF A PACKAGE, OUR LIABILITY FOR LOSS, DAMAGE, DELAY, MISDELIVERY, NONDELIVERY, MISINFORMATION, ANY FAILURE TO PROVIDE INFORMATION, OR MISDELIVERY OF INFORMATION, WILL NOT EXCEED ITS REPAIR COST, ITS DEPRECIATED VALUE OR ITS REPLACEMENT COST, WHICHEVER IS LESS. [Capitalized in T&C document]

Commentary: Hell, if we can find some schmuck who'll "repair" it for 10 bux, we'll only pay you $10.

G. See the Liabilities Not Assumed section for other limitations and exclusions on our liability.

Commentary: We've got 137 more ways of screwing you out of the $100 you're entitled to if we lose or damage your tuba.

UPS policies are similar. For brevity's sake, here's what UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service says about insurance:

When a Shipper declares a value in excess of $100, it does not receive any form of insurance. Shippers desiring cargo insurance, all risk insurance, or another form of insurance should pur­chase such insurance from a third party

BOTTOM LINE: if you're shipping a tuba (or any other musical instrument) and it absolutely, positively has to be insured against damage and loss, contact an insurance agent or broker.

Pgym

[Tom]

I suspect that most people don't consider the truck freight option just because they're not accustomed to it, and dealing with a trucking company doesn't seem as easy and "friendly" to them as dealing with more of a "retail" place. But in my experience they're in fact more pleasant, more competent, and more efficient.

We use truck freight considerably with organ work, and have sent 56' trailers full of pipe organ as far as Texas. Truck freight is not without challenge, or risk. We have received professionally packed crates that had forklift forks ran THROUGH the crate by AAA Cooper trucking. They then refused to pay for the repairs caused by their damage and agent.

I would be personally far more nervous about L-T-L truck freight than Greyhound.

I ship instruments and concert production equipment on an almost daily basis, usually stuff that is a heck of a lot more expensive ("valuable") than a tuba and stuff that is a heck of a lot harder to repair or replace than a tuba (I would label organ pipes as valuable and hard to repair or replace, fwiw). All of those shipments are via commercial trucking lines, not consumer grade FedEx or UPS. For commercial shipping of freight, there is no better way to go than commercial trucking lines (there also isn't really any alternative, to be honest). But...what tuben speaks is the truth. There are challenges and risks with commercial trucking as well. The first thing to realize is that commercial trucking lines are not UPS and they don't operate like that. Being consumer friendly doesn't really matter, because they're not a consumer grade service. The second thing to know is that your shipment has to be packed to withstand truck travel. This means that your item will be handled with forklifts and pallet jacks and that it will probably be stacked or get stacked on, especially if it's a flat topped item. Third, these guys are in just as big of a hurry as any other shipping line, and accidents happen...usually stuff gets dropped from 3'-5' distance or a forklift tine runs through the shipment (it's happened to me several times - all the companies have this issue). Fourth, you've got to have a loading dock for pick up and delivery unless you request a lift gate truck (usually $75-$150 extra charge) or you take it to the truck terminal yourself.

These sorts of companies do usually have some form of tracking and insurance, but it can be unreliable as the freight moves around so fast that check in and check out scans are sometimes missed. Like FedEx and UPS, they have liability limits on insurance, too, and will happily sell as much "insurance" as you want. I would not suggest a commercial trucking line for the guy that is trying to ship his tuba to the new buyer, has packed it at home in cardboard, and who only has that one item to ship.

Bottom line for tuba shippers, IMHO, is that if you're doing to turn your stuff over to someone else to transport, and you're going to have to live with crappy tracking and questionable insurance, is that you might as well go with the carrier least likely to destroy your shipment: Greyhound. Or Amtrak. The absolute best way is still to move it yourself but sometimes that just isn't practical and we have to turn to others.

[bort]

How would one go about getting full replacement value insurance for *shipping*?

Again, I'm curious what Clarion would do... but I'm too paranoid to ask them, because they'd note it on my record, and then ding me if I ever had to file a claim for that exact thing.

[edsel585960]

I've received 2 horns via Greyhound over the last couple of years. Both arrived in good condition. Yes, I have an actual Greyhound station in Ft. Myers. If the horn has a case to ship it in it is good. They obviously did not abuse the 2nd tuba I received because the seller just put it in the case with a couple of pieces of foam rubber and it arrived intact. If you do use greyhound, wrap the case with plastic wrap so the case cannot be opened easily. I've been happy with Greyhound but I don't think I would send a $7000 miraphone with them.

[Michael Bush]

*Palletized freight does have LESS of a chance of being damaged.

Problems (regardless of shipper) are - MOST OF THE TIME - related to the PACKING JOB.

On Wednesday I picked up from a truck freight depot a nearly-400 pound pallet holding two boxes containing a damageable but not very fragile item (a woodworking bench). The cardboard and some of the styrofoam board packaging was beaten up badly. The bench inside was pristine, because it had been packed with the expectation that the outer layers would be treated as they were.

At the same time, I haven't seen a box shipped via Greyhound in anything like the condition these boxes were in.

[Donn]

When people ship via HIGHLY-AUTOMATED FedExGround and UPS Ground...and try to stuff FULL-SIZE OR OVER-SIZE TUBAS into 165" boxes, they (just imo...) are "asking for it".

Like a 32 lb, 6/4 bell front tuba, with the bell attached, in a carton made out of several smaller boxes taped together? I can testify that this falls a little short of adequate.

[Dubby]

When I bought my horn this Fall it was shipped via Greyhound, Massachusetts to South Dakota I believe. The bus station here in Sioux Falls isn't a Greyhound station, but the horn arrived in great condition. No case, just a cardboard box with foam and those air bag things and a metal bar inside the box to strengthen the sides. It took about a week to get here and tracking was meh.