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This is mostly to satisfy my own curiosity, as I'm not really interested in plunking down a few kilobucks just to see the one-eyed-monster better.

Has anyone out there taken the plunge for an HDTV setup? If so, what's been your experience with signal quality, reliability of service, etc.?

I recall back in the 1990's when the HDTV standard first came out that a number of sources said that if you had analog reception problems, HDTV would only be worse.

We have had high definition for over a year now. The issues we have is that over the air is tricky. Digital signals in our area require black magic to get the antenna in just the right position. 5 degrees off and the signal disappears. Another issue is general lack of content. We have Dish network and very little is actually high def. We get something like 10 channels I believe and that includes paying extra for some premium channels to get high def.

The upsides are that the picture in High Def makes buying a large screen TV worth while. The Dish Network high def receiver upconverts everything to 1080i before sending it to the TV via component video. When there is a good movie on in high def, it looks freaking awesome. We also many times get Dolby Digital along with the high def movie. That makes for some good vegging.

If you have a nice large screen TV now that you enjoy, keep it and wait. If you need a TV, then do not buy an analog only set. Get one which accepts HDTV also. If you do not have sattelite TV and plan to then pay the extra for the high def receiver at sign up. If you decide to later buy the box and already have service then you will pay out the nose. When you start service they give HUGE discounts on hardware.

Chuck(G) wrote:This is mostly to satisfy my own curiosity, as I'm not really interested in plunking down a few kilobucks just to see the one-eyed-monster better.

It's not that bad now. If you a new customer, Dish network will sell you a reciever, monitor, and antenna for $1000. If you call, I think you can get a PVR* instead for a few hundred more.

Has anyone out there taken the plunge for an HDTV setup? If so, what's been your experience with signal quality, reliability of service, etc.?

I recall back in the 1990's when the HDTV standard first came out that a number of sources said that if you had analog reception problems, HDTV would only be worse.

Like any new technology it takes time. The current issue is lack of HD programming. Quality is great. Service is as reliable as any other. The analog/digital reception issue is about the same as cell phones. With digital, if you have a strong enought signal it's great, but there is a sharp drop off at the edges. Analog fades, giving a worse signal untill it's unusable. You don't get a noisy, snowy picture with digital. It all or nothing.

I'm concerned about the monitors. What kind of longevity will they have? I've got early CD players and early DVD players that broke very fast. Then again I've got an original Walkman CD player that still works. So quality is the issu, especially on the low to mid range products. Will a mid range HD monitor last as long as a non HD monitor? Based on my past experience, not yet.

*The DISH-Player 921 dual tuner PVR instead of the DISH 811 reciever. Not sure about availibilty of the 921 right now though.

Dish is out of the question for me--out here, you need a clear view of the south horizon. I've got a couple of acres of mature Doug fir right in the way and there's no way I'm going to log that to put in a dish.

I was more concerned with off-the-air reception. Even though most of the local transmitters are closer than 10 miles, the topography is pretty wrinkled and often a more distant repeater provides better reception than the closer main transmitter.
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On the longevity issue, one of my EE trade rags awhile back reported that the big plasma displays do have a limited life and they're usually being pushed pretty hard to provide a good daylight-viewable bright picture.

I doubt one of the big screen plasma models will outlast a tranditional bottle.

Chuck(G) wrote:Dish is out of the question for me--out here, you need a clear view of the south horizon. I've got a couple of acres of mature Doug fir right in the way and there's no way I'm going to log that to put in a dish.

I'd have to see the site, but nothing says you must mount the dish to the house.
I installed big (7-12ft) C-band dishes for a while. even stricter requirements, since the entire arc needed to be clear for different birds. Standar install put the center of the dish 5-6ft above the ground. But I installed many much higher than that, including a few 20+ feet up in the air.

The little dishes used now could easily be mounted up high. Find a good dealer that's been around for a while, not one of those rinky-dink places, or big chain stores, neither will be willing to put the effort into making it work. But you should be able to get it high enough to clear the trees.

Moving the dish north, away from the trees also helps. One place I lived I had the dish 20ft from the house under a tree, so I could clear a tree a few houses away. Get a compass, protractor, and a ladder. I can get you the Az/Elev with you zipcode if you don't have another source. Then move around, in all three dimensions. You can probably find a clear shot.

I was more concerned with off-the-air reception. Even though most of the local transmitters are closer than 10 miles, the topography is pretty wrinkled and often a more distant repeater provides better reception than the closer main transmitter.

See if you can find a good techniocian to measure the signal strength for you. Contact the HD monitor manufacturer for help finding one, as well as the signal requirements their set have. Won't the trees be an issue for OTA broadcasts too?

On the longevity issue, one of my EE trade rags awhile back reported that the big plasma displays do have a limited life and they're usually being pushed pretty hard to provide a good daylight-viewable bright picture.
I doubt one of the big screen plasma models will outlast a tranditional bottle.

Plasma is not mid range. Still compare HD plasma to SD plasma. My concern is more abot rear projection (which I dislike anyway) and CRT based HD monitors.

ThomasDodd wrote:The little dishes used now could easily be mounted up high. Find a good dealer that's been around for a while, not one of those rinky-dink places, or big chain stores, neither will be willing to put the effort into making it work. But you should be able to get it high enough to clear the trees.
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Plasma is not mid range. Still compare HD plasma to SD plasma. My concern is more abot rear projection (which I dislike anyway) and CRT based HD monitors.

Chuck's place is a lot like mine, only worse. It isn't a tree or two, but a forest of them. The land to the north slopes away. The trees are TALL (i.e., you'd need a 100-foot ladder and quite a tower). And Chuck lives in northern latitudes, meaning the bird is a lot closer to the horizon.

My dish looks through some trees, with the resulting marginal reception. It works fine, but it's marginal enough so that fairly routine rain and snow attenuation causes me to lose the signal. In a year or two, I'll either have to abandon the dish or construct a wife-prohibited tower (or, I could run several hundred feet of underground wire to the edge of my lot, but that causes other problems, not least of which the work involved). I'm hoping the cable company will get out here by then, and perhaps I'll also be able to get high-speed Internet.

The reception is more marginal on the premium channels, where more bandwidth is being used, than on the local channels routed through the satellite (I have DirecTV), and the premium channels only seem to add Dolby sound to widen their demand. I don't have HDTV, but I haven't heard anything here to suggest that now is the best time.

It seems to me that nothing degrades faster than rear projection displays. CRT's degrade pretty quickly, too, especially when they are run full-bore in bright rooms. Are plasma displays really just as bad? I bought a 36" CRT television six years ago thinking it would last until I was ready to make the HDTV jump, but I'm finding that the TV is already becoming flaky. Oh, well. It was cheap. I may have to buy another big CRT--they are a fifth the price of a similarly sized flat panel.

Rick "whose pines are not nearly as tall as Chuck's firs" Denney

Currently, I have Dish Network. The dish is mounted on a tree stump on a hill in front of my house. At first the installer ran the cable around through the woods which is the perimeter of my house. He ran it all the way around and to the back of my house. Once he had everything connected, he could not get a signal. So, he had to shorten the run (by running the cable right across the grass to the side of my house. One of these days I will have to bury it. Point is - a dish can be placed anywhere as long as the cable run isn't too long. I must have 100 feet of cabling.

As far as HDTV, I don't have it OTA or through dish currently. But, when comcast cable came out with HDTV (at a different house), I went for it. It looked great, but there was still not a lot of programming. So I got rid of it.

As far as getting it over the air in your area... You are just going to have to go through the trouble of setting up an antenna. 10 miles away is nothing and all the web sites will tell you that you can get it. But the terain is your issue. You will just have to try.

Good Luck
Stefan

I'll never have satellite service as long as cable is available. Let me explain why...

We just got back in town from visiting our kids and grandkids in NY and also in VA. Both of our son's have satellite TV (DirecTV) service. When it was raining only slightly in NY, he lost the signal completely. Maybe the dish is not aligned just right -- who knows. My other son in VA has his dish (with 3 feed horns) mounted on the corner of his house only about 3 feet off the ground. He tells me the technician said it was easier to clear away snow when necessary. I say "hogwash!". The installer was just lazy. Being so low causes it to barely shoot over the tree tops. In the VA mountains it can be difficult finding a true horizon.

Rick (thankful my cable bill is only $20/mo.) Floyd

Stefan wrote:The dish is mounted on a tree stump on a hill in front of my house. At first the installer ran the cable around through the woods which is the perimeter of my house. He ran it all the way around and to the back of my house. Once he had everything connected, he could not get a signal. So, he had to shorten the run (by running the cable right across the grass to the side of my house. One of these days I will have to bury it. Point is - a dish can be placed anywhere as long as the cable run isn't too long. I must have 100 feet of cabling.

That's not a "good" installer, though I give them credit for at least trying.

The cable should not have been left on the ground. They should have used a cable that was designed to be burried (cost a bit more but in bulk it's not that bad). With C-band dishes, it was a multi condictor cable. 2 RG-6 lines, a 3 conductor line for the polarotor (at the LNB) and 4 conductors for the motor to move the dish. This was installed in a trench, about 6" below the surface. Usually we used a small, flat shovel to open the ground enough to get the cable in, but for long (over 100ft) we used a gass trenching tool to cut the trench (that was only to let us get the install done quickly though[1}).

The run through the woods should have been clearly too long. Still an amp in the line would probably have worked. I'm guessing that run was lying on the ground too. Sounds like the cable guy that runn along baseboards or the outside of the house instead of going under the house or through the attic. I spent many hot summer days in an attic dropping cables down the walls, or crawling around under a house in the mud to get the cable where it needed to be. That's a professional installition. I don't see how the guys doing most of the small dishes have the nerve to call themselves "professional".

[1] when my parents goit their C-band dish in '86, it too several days to get complete. When I was installing them in '91we always did it in less than a day. Even did 2 a few days if they were close enough to each other. Usually took us 4 hours, from arrival to departure (thanks to quick drying cement).

Rick Denney wrote:Chuck's place is a lot like mine, only worse. It isn't a tree or two, but a forest of them. The land to the north slopes away. The trees are TALL (i.e., you'd need a 100-foot ladder and quite a tower). And Chuck lives in northern latitudes, meaning the bird is a lot closer to the horizon.

The north slope could be a problem. Not insurmountable, but it add a level of difficulty. Qnd the low elevation angle doesn't help. Still, I'll be it could be done for less than you think. Would need the topolopy to figure out just how high, and would probably need a non standard dish. High gain, larger diameter, and mesh(not solid) to reduce wind resistance.

My dish looks through some trees, with the resulting marginal reception. It works fine, but it's marginal enough so that fairly routine rain and snow attenuation causes me to lose the signal.

Rain fade is due ti the dish size and frequency. Try getting a larger dish, say 24-26"

In a year or two, I'll either have to abandon the dish or construct a wife-prohibited tower (or, I could run several hundred feet of underground wire to the edge of my lot, but that causes other problems, not least of which the work involved). I'm hoping the cable company will get out here by then, and perhaps I'll also be able to get high-speed Internet.

I'd go the long cable if possible. You migh need a powered amplifier to make the run, but it's cheaper than going up. I thing the normal limitation on lengt is the DC resistance of the coax. It powred the LNBF and controls the polarity switching. It also powers the switches. DishNetwork now has a quad output LNBF, which is really 2 dual output LNBFs and a switch so any output can be either LNBF and either polarity. That takes a low of power from the coax. Multiple outputs and the switch cause a loss in signal strength too.

I don't like DirectTV. They alway seamed behind Dish on the technology side. Be it DolbyDigital, HDTV, or PVR. Or how about the JVC D-VHS (digital VHS recording from the sat.) back in '98 or 99. I wish the merger had happened though. All that extra bandwidth would have been great for HD and internet access.

I'll not let a cable company in my house. Around here the selection sucks, price is high, and service noexistant(based on my last dealings with them and what I hear from otyhers). I suffered more outages with them than rain fade cause now. And I could get stereo, surround signals. Cable didn't even give stereo on MTV, or HBO. And forget about the other HBO (Cinemax, Showtime) channels or "late feeds".I think they have a digital plan now, but the choice still suck, and it's expensive.

It seems to me that nothing degrades faster than rear projection displays. CRT's degrade pretty quickly, too, especially when they are run full-bore in bright rooms. Are plasma displays really just as bad? I bought a 36" CRT television six years ago thinking it would last until I was ready to make the HDTV jump, but I'm finding that the TV is already becoming flaky. Oh, well. It was cheap. I may have to buy another big CRT--they are a fifth the price of a similarly sized flat panel.

Rear projection breaks sooner becaue of the LCD instestead of CRTs than most now use. It's cheaper and lighter, but ask any laptop owner about LCD life. Plasma, based on what I've read, is worse than LCD. It's brighter sure, but heavy, hot, and short lived.

As to the CRT, you bough a cheap set? Did you reall expect much?

I bough my 36" CRT in '99. Got a deal on it, but it typically sold for $1200 at the time. It's adjusted for a low light room, which is how I watch movies. I try to adjust it every 6 months, using the "Video Essentials" DVD. It's hasn't changed much over the 5 years I've had it. It may not be as bright, but I can't tell. Same for the 10yr old 27" monitor in the bedroom that the 36" replaced. Never use the RF inputs much though, so I don't know if the tuner section would hold up as well.

Rick F wrote:I'll never have satellite service as long as cable is available. Let me explain why...

I diidn't see an explanition, just a few gripes.

When it was raining only slightly in NY, he lost the signal completely. Maybe the dish is not aligned just right -- who knows.

Most likely. I don't have rain fade problem often. It's cool sometimes too. One it get the TV off which is a good thing. Also, Storm often move in from the south here. I have most windows closed and really cannot see the conditions outside when I'm watching TV. I'll loos the signal, look out side and it's not raining (door faces north), but if I look south like the dish does, I see the mess comming my way. So I get 5-20 minutes warning on the bad stuff.

My other son in VA has his dish (with 3 feed horns) mounted on the corner of his house only about 3 feet off the ground. He tells me the technician said it was easier to clear away snow when necessary. I say "hogwash!".

I agree with you there. A heated liner for the dish works better anyway (and doesn't use much power). It should be moved to get the clearest view possible, Go for a chimney mout or near the roof peak. No sense having a marginal signal when you have such an easy/cheap fix. Sounds like the installer forgot his ladder or was to lazy to get it out. More importantly, it's too easy to damage that low, especially with young chldren around. Kids have a destructive side, and somethig that small is easy pickings.

Rick (thankful my cable bill is only $20/mo.) Floyd

I couldn't even get basic service here for that. To get anything worth watching would be 3 times that. With Dish at least, I can get 60 decent channels for $25/mo ( less than $23 if I pay for a year at once).

I thought this was television, not amateur radio astronomy...

kidding...

ThomasDodd wrote:\I try to adjust it every 6 months, using the "Video Essentials" DVD.

Note I have "Video Essentials DVD" as discussed under Past Programs->Video Essentials-DVD. The new "Digital Video Essentials" I don't have yet. I probably will get it though, since it added DTS 5.1 support, and the newer 6.1 audio formats, and some much improved video calibration images.

Since there's no cable in the neighborhood and local OTA content is pretty limited and the prospect of putting in a dish is expensive, I think I'll listen to the radio...

Chuck(G) wrote:Since there's no cable in the neighborhood and local OTA content is pretty limited and the prospect of putting in a dish is expensive, I think I'll listen to the radio... :)

Or read a book, and play tuba. Then there's the wife and kids and dogs and my car...

Yeah, my installer was probably lazy. But he had to instal it where he did. My house is surrounded by trees and this was the only place to get a clear view of the sky at the correct angle. I hope the cabling is good enough. Because one of these days I plan on burying in the ground.

Stefan