l'il kiddies with Vehicles of Mass Destruction

[Lew]

Interestingly both of my children were 19 before they got their driver's licenses. Neither seemed to have much of an interest before then. Now, at the ages of 20 and 21 1/2 they both have clean driving records. I still worry, but I wonder if waiting made them that much better drivers. I know they weren't ready at 17.

[Doug@GT]

Well-put as always, Joe.

One concern, though. The only way I was able to take joint-enrollemnt courses while in high school was with my car. Family situations made any other method of getting me to the college and to the high school from there an impossibility. I turned 18 two days before I started college, so under your plan I would have had to forego the joint-enrollment program. That gets a big pfft! from me.

Say 18, but be willing to make special exceptions. They do exist, and are quite legit.

[Rick Denney]

I turned 18 two days before I started college, so under your plan I would have had to forego the joint-enrollment program. That gets a big pfft! from me.

What about cabs? Buses? Bicycles? Feet?

At age 19, I gave up driving for a year because I had proved I wasn't responsible enough. Yes, it was my choice. I commuted to college, 100 miles from home, by Greyhound bus. I walked alot and rode my bike a lot. The only damage it cost me was the loss of 25 pounds of fat and the restoration of some financial control on my father's budget.

Rick "who drove at 16 and learned what he knows about body work as a result" Denney

[Philip Jensen]

I suspect kids today think is is very easy to drive. Of course with today's cars that virtually drive themselves, this doesn't help any. I remember the first few times I drove a car on the road I was petrified. This was after driving a lawn tractor since 10, and eventually a real tractor, before ever sitting in the drivers seat of a car.

I thinks today's youth have an unrealistic idea of what it takes to drive. After all, they've mastered all those driving video games, how hard can the real thing be? Add on top of that an inability to concentrate and it's a recipe for disaster.

Hmmm, that inability to concentrate, I wonder if this is the big reason for the youth driving record. With the way education has been going, kids are less and less developing the skill of focusing one's attention on a given task, be it class work, or driving a car.

I remember a sketch on SNL, maybe 12 years ago featuring the "short attention span theatre" It was a bunch of video clips, maybe 5-10 seconds each, strung together, the implication being anything longer would loose the viewer's attention. It was hilarious, but on the other hand quite chilling, and unfortunately quite prophetic.

Philip "25 yrs on the road, 3 tickets (none for 14 years), no accidents - some close shaves - one VERY close shave (the "volkswagon of doom" - I can still picture the drunk woman's eyes)" Jensen

[Doug@GT]

I'm sure you could have afforded cab fare for two days, if it was that important to you and your family. Your example/excuse is the one that will be offered by 99% of those who will complain - one of convenience trumping mortal danger. Again, how "convenient" is destruction, injury, and death?

Joe, you misunderstood. I didn't exactly write it clear, either. I turned 19 two days before college, but joint-enrollemnt is a high school program. IOW I was most assuredly 17 the whole time. My point was that people I knew turned 18 their senior year. I didn't.

What about cabs? Buses? Bicycles? Feet?

No cabs or buses in my area. I live in Northeast Georgia. We're not exactly talking about reasonable walking or riding distances. I can walk from one end of my college campus to the other twice as fast as it took me to drive to my high school.

I agree with both of you, but I'm trying to recognize that there are legitimate exceptions out there.

[Dan Schultz]

I guess I was just lucky! Both of my girls started driving at 16. Neither ever got a ticket or was involved in an accident. The flex-plate in a Taurus wagon went south once when my younger daughter was driving. She was worried to death that it was somehow her fault. Of course, it wasn't.

Say, Joe... I'm curious... were you your kid's driving instructor?

[Doug@GT]

Joe, basically you're asking if the exception is worth the risk. I suspect that until I am a parent I will never fully grasp the viewpoint you're coming from.

Teens make up 7% of licensed drivers, but account for 14% of all traffic fatalities. Over half of teen traffic deaths are on weekends. I'd venture to guess that most of the rest are evenings rather than to or from school. Regardless, limiting teen driving to educational functions (not school functions--there is a difference) would bring the death rate down to equal to or below the normal population.

[Tom Mason]

I was 17 years old my entire senior year of high school and for the first 2 weeks of college. I was driving to high school (25 miles one way) before turning 18.

What's worse, I never had to take my driving exam. Scored 100 in my written exam, and the state trooper assigned to test me knew me and my dad. He looked at me, and told dad I passed the driving exam.

Having said that, most of my traffic stops are on teenagers. Including DWI, alcohol in the vehicle, drugs in the vehicle, and minor traffic accidents.

I would agree with my buddy Joe when he says that young'uns don't need to be driving. The most painful experience of my life came when I had to look a parent in the face and explain why their child died in a MVA, and it was the child's fault.

Tom Mason

[Alex Reeder]

OK, I know you all are going to bash my head in pretty soon, but I had to add a little bit of the other viewpoint in here. I am 17 right now, and won't turn 18 until two months into college. I started driving a little later than most of my friends, and didn't get my licence until a few months ago because all my time was spent preparing for college auditions.

I will admit, a lot of kids are pretty stupid, many of my friends included. But to say that all kids are dangers to humanity is going more than a little bit overboard.

My driving experiences have all been very good, and I owe a lot of it to my parents, who are good driving role models as well as teachers. I have never been in any kind of accident, nor anything close to being in danger, and never a ticket or anything. You old farts will say that it is only a matter of time, but I don't think so.

Do you know why I will not get a speeding ticket? Because I will not speed. Do you know why I will not get a drunk driving ticket? Because I will not drink and drive. You talk about teenagers as if they can not help it. I choose to make myself safe by conciously, maturely making good decisions.

[Leland]

I still think that driver's ed could be a LOT more thorough and the standards for getting a license should be much more stringent.

Heck, for my license, I basically drove around the block on a sunny day. They had no way of knowing how I'd drive at night, in the rain, in the snow, on the freeway, or in rush hour traffic in the middle of downtown. I had taken private driving lessons, and was way overprepared for my actual driving test -- which means that someone who was trained less than I was could still pass the test.

A trained monkey could pass most states' driver exams. That's just plain stupid. It's not a right, it's a privilege, and it needs to be earned, not given.

[Matt G]

I drove for three years before any major incident.

My first car was a '67 Mercury Montclair with a 390 V8 in it. It was super fast in a straight line, but couldn't turn and had drum brakes at every corner. Driving that thing tought me how to control a vehicle in just about every crappy condition.

My first accident came because I simply couldn't see due to being blinded by the florida sun at 8am right in the eyes. The second was because a few of us were paying far too much attention to the idiots jumping around on the street corner during election day (1996).

My recommendation is similar to Lelands. We should throw all of those kids into a real drivers ed course, not some half *** class run by a football coach in a fenced in lot where you see some movies that are at least 30 years old. AAA's programs are useless also, and the testing for all states seems to be universally inadequate.

Seeing as driving is a priveledge, not a right, we should make this a much harder license to obtain. Driving Instruction should be akin to a two week course at a Skip Barber racing school. People would learn how to control a vehicle in a high speed manuveur and emergency situations. Hopefully this course would scare the poop out of those unable to take the time to master these skill and have the nerve to really control a car. We could then keep these people off the road until they feel ready to do so.

As an aside: It used to be that teenage boys were the true idiots out on the road. From what I can see anymore, the real menaces are the teenage girls. They constantly are on the cell phone, singing to whatever is on the radio, and worrying about hair/makeup. These are notoriosly always the ones I have riding up on my *** and cutting me off.

Back to topic. I feel that people should understand a car as a tool first and foremost. When they understand proper safety rules of usage and all possible situation in which this tool must be made to properly function, then they can be licensed to use it.

[ThomasDodd]

Seeing as driving is a priveledge, not a right, we should make this a much harder license to obtain. Driving Instruction should be akin to a two week course at a Skip Barber racing school. People would learn how to control a vehicle in a high speed manuveur and emergency situations. Hopefully this course would scare the poop out of those unable to take the time to master these skill and have the nerve to really control a car. We could then keep these people off the road until they feel ready to do so.

I would agree here. It is far to simple to get a DL in the U.S.A. It's also far too cheap.
Look at the German system for a good example. Interesting how few fatalities they have.

If it cost parents/teens $500-$1000 to get an inexperienced DL, many wouldn't pay that expense. Situations where there is a genuine need for a DL, civic groups could pitch in to help out (not another federal assistance program). inecperienced drive = anyone under 18 and anyone with less than 2 years driving with a clean record. So if you get a DL at 16 and have no moving violations/incidents at 18 it drops to the current rates. If at 17 and 9 months, you get a ticket, then you MUST start over, and get 2 years clean. If you don't get a DL untill 25, you still pay the inexperienced fee, and need a 2 year clean record.

Everyone should be tested every 5yrs. Testing is not "around the block" crap either. Full speed (55-70) tests, merging, and emergency actions. Teens are a problem, but so is some old person "merging" into 60MPH doing 35MPH. It should also be much harder for elderly to keep a DL.

[goldenmoose]

I started driving when I was 14 years old. I took my first cross country journey when I was 16. I bought my car when I was 18 for $1500 cash. I am now 21 years old and have a clean driving record.

[Leland]

One other thing -- age does not guarantee maturity.

Just look at how we carry on sometimes...

[Doug@GT]

Look at the German system for a good example.

Switzerland, too. A friend of mine's family lived over there for a few years. Her younger sister was hit by a car on the way to school (she was walking).

I asked how she was.

"Oh, she was fine. Car just touched her, that's all."

I asked about the driver.

"Oh, he'll never drive again in that country."

I thought, wow, there's incentive to drive safely.

[Alex Reeder]

I have to agree with everyone who said that tests to get your license should be harder. Driver's Ed was a real joke for me. I was taught by a 70 year old man named Mr. Nutter (no kidding!) and many people simply slept through the whole thing.
I don't agree with the idea that making a license more expensive would help anything. That's just unfair. It would not keep bad drivers off the road, only poor drivers (no pun intended). A rich 17 year old girl could still drive around in daddy's porsche while a good driver might simply not be able to afford it.
I say yes to harder standards and harsher penalties. If you don't measure up, you shouldn't be driving. But still, people have to learn somehow. I like the idea of hard-core driving school, but remember to think of the money and who you might be leaving out.

[Rick F]

Well, I got my license at age 16 (in BOSTON yet!)

BOSTON - has to be the worst city I've ever driven in. More honking of horns than any other city I've driven in. They drive crazy there! Somone once told me that many folks have beat-up cars just to drive around town.

I got my license at 16. Didn't get my first ticket until age 56... which was last year. Shucks. Both of my son's got their license at 16 also. They're now 33 and 30. The 30 year old tells me he still has a clean driving record. the 33 yo has had one ticket and one accident. This was in the Atlanta area.

[Matt G]

I've driven in Boston. Boston is nothing compared to Manhattan. Oddly enough the most "horn-honking" I've ever dealt with is in New Jersey.

However, the Interstates in Florida and California take the prize for the number of insane drivers. I'll take honking over dodging bullets, defending against road rage, and watching out for the "sit and squat" (or whatever the hell that insurance fraud is called) anyday.

[joebob]

I grew up in a town population of 5,000 with no stop lights (only four-way stop signs). My parents were very cautious in letting me drive, but drive I did. I have never had a wreck (am now in my early 30s) and have gotten two speeding tickets, both of which were for going 73 in a 65 (Mass. state troopers at the end of the month). This whole issue comes down to how many deaths/accidents per capita per year is it worth letting young people drive? I guess I think that things are fine today, but of course I've never had a family member or friend seriously affected by poor teenage driving.

[Leland]

Eh --

The problem isn't speed by itself, but the speed differential between drivers. If the kids are stuck going 55 on an interstate with a 75 mph speed limit (or one at 65, but everyone else drives 80 anyway), that's much more dangerous than having them just go with the flow, so to speak.

Having the flashers going all the time (I assume we mean hazard lights, not... you know.. ) would be quite a distraction, and would mask actual stopped cars.

I certainly wouldn't mind harsher penalties, or better yet, penalties that equate to a percentage of a person's income. A hundred dollars might be a real dent to a low income, but pocket change to a rich person. Some other countries (man.. there's that phrase again) do levy fines based on income, and a ticket of $100 for someone poor would have a fine in the thousand$ against a rich person.

I think, honestly, that the term "teenage" gets substituted for "rookie". New drivers of any age will make some stupid mistakes. It's just that the majority of rookie drivers are teenagers.