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Also like several cloverleaves in Jackson ...

Intelligent Design or Survival Of The Fittest?

the elephant wrote:What intersection is this?

San Pedro and IH-410, San Antonio.

Rick "who didn't remember that ramp configuration, but who would recognize that building across 410 from Central Park Mall from any angle" Denney

the elephant wrote:You are correct. That is the intersection of Loop 410 and San Pedro Ave. I am intrigued by the near perfection of the cloverleaf design. I am from San Antonio and am a fan of several very nice highway interchanges in the area. I live in Jackson, MS right now and the highway exits are very poorly designed. Just another reason to miss home . . . *sniff*

Let it be known that I answered before reading any message below your first one. You should believe me.

But that ramp thing...yup, it didn't used to be configured like that. The ramp from 410 to northbound San Pedro was just like the other ones, but entered San Pedro about a foot and a half from Lockhill-Selma/Isom. That was a terrible problem. I believe the ramp has been moved since my departure from San Antonio. Look on the USGS quad to see how it used to be. It's the 7.5-minute quad titled "Longhorn".

And, lo and behold, Streets and Trips still shows it the old way. Sheesh.

And nobody calls San Pedro by its highway number. I barely even remembered myself that it was SH357.

But I have to tell you that, symmetrical or not, cloverleaf interchanges do not operate particularly well. I can beat their capacity with a well-designed and operated diamond interchange. Given that TxDOT does the timing of the diamonds in San Antonio, though, that's not a fair assumption.

I installed and operated one of the first small-scale signal systems in the country using the Model 170 signal controller on north San Pedro just north of this intersection. That was so long ago that the Model 170 is now considered obsolete, and we in the traffic biz only update our control equipment standards once a generation, whether it needs it or not. Of course, the system I replaced in downtown San Antonio had been installed in 1957.

Rick "who had rehearsal tonight and showed up late for the quiz" Denney

I was born in Riverside, California, and grew up in nearby Colton. Both cities have very famous (or infamous) freeway interchanges.

The Colton Interchange (most people who pass through think it San Bernardino but it's in the Colton city limits) was originally the Riverside Freeway (US 91-395, CA 18, & I-15) and the San Bernardino Freeway (US 70-99 & I-10). This was the original southern terminus of I-15. Today it's Interstates 215 and 10. The interchange was completely rebuilt about 25 years ago--it used to look similar to the interchange that Wade has posted above. I-15 no longer goes through the city limits of Riverside or San Bernardino (it does go through places with Riverside and San Bernardino ZIP Codes); the major cities on I-15 on this stretch of the freeway are Ontario and Corona.



This is a picture of the Colton interchange in 1960.




This is about a quarter mile before that point in 2005.

Let's see if I can add something to this discussion since I live in San Antonio. That particular intersection is not one I often frequent, however. I did not know that was SH 357. To me, it is San Pedro Ave. The reference made to Central Park Mall was an interesting one, since it no longer exists!

Since the building on the northwest sector of that intersection is mentioned(by Rick), does anyone know what the original name/occupant of that building was? This could be deemed an important part of San Antonio history.

LoyalTubist wrote:I was born in Riverside, California, and grew up in nearby Colton. Both cities have very famous (or infamous) freeway interchanges.

Notice that your pictures explain the reasons for the designs. In the picture of the older configuration how many cars do you see?

Rick "just about anything works if there is no traffic demand" Denney

TubaRay wrote:...The reference made to Central Park Mall was an interesting one, since it no longer exists!

It was fading badly even when I lived there.

Do you remember when they moved that ramp?

I lived in San Antonio during the S&L crisis, and remember the demise of SASA. All the financial institutions were a little shaky in San Antonio. That was true going back to the side-door banking that T.C. Frost ran out of his general store on the northwest corner of Main Plaza. 75 years later, his descendents built an actual, real bank there, and then 50-odd years after that, their descendents moved the bank to its current location across the street on Houston between Flores and Main (and that was 35 years ago). As I strung wire through that old bank building to build data connections to my traffic signal system, I kept expecting to find hidden evidence of bank fraud squirreled away in its nether regions. And it has some nether regions.

When the City Council moved their chambers into what used to be the lobby of that bank, they had no idea of some of the mysterious passageways in that building. I remember calling the elevator to the abandoned and rubble-strewn mezzanine of that lobby, and the shocked look on people's faces when the doors opened. Some of those folks had worked in that building for years and never knew there was a mystery floor that the elevator served. As I recall, it opened into what had once been a men's room.

You'll will remember when we rehearsed for our Christmas presentation in the lobby of the old Frost Bank, after the Luby's Cafeteria moved out, and before the City built the new council chambers. (I was one of the few who actually had a key to that building.) Before that, we rented a room at one of the nearby fleabag hotels. That was after the Mall Period, to which Wade refers, and before the current Arneson Period. I think I only played one of them in a mall.

Rick "apologizing for the San Antonio memory lane trip" Denney

Yes, Wade, I do remember the limo. And I believe we did run across San Pedro from Central Park to North Star Mall(for those unfamiliar w/San Antonio it probably seems pretty wierd that Central Park Mall & North Star Mall were across the street from each other).

Yes, Rick, I remember rehearsing in the lobby of the old Frost bank. We then did our concert across the street on Main Plaza. That may have been the absolute best setup we ever had. Our present one is pretty good, though.

For the record, Rick's trip down memory lane brings a few for me, as well. I guess I'm pretty greedy. I wish both of you guys were still around here.