Gasoline + Ethanol

[tubatom91]

This is more of a heads up for anybody with an old(er) car. I have a 37' that is currently out of action because of the ethanol in modern gasoline. The Ethanol in the gasoline eats the rubber diaphrams away in old fuel pumps. Watch out if you have a fuel pump in your car that is not a new model with Ethanol resistant parts. New Old Stock parts will not have this protection. I felt the need to share this info before you end up on the side of the road scatching your head!

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I'm not positive what you meant by "New Old Stock parts." Do you mean original parts (say, made in the 70s) still new in the box?

I haven't heard about this problem selling auto parts every day; however, very few of my customers drive around 1937 Ford Model 78s or Chevy Masters. What kind of '37 do you drive?

The complaints I hear about ethanol have, without exception, been about reduced fuel economy. In my area, only the Valero stations advertise ethanol-free gasoline at their pumps. For that reason, I only fill up there. Interestingly enough, Valero could be lying through their collective teeth and I'd never know it...good way to get some extra customers.

MARKETING ALERT: Someone smarter than me should develop a new fuel additive ("miracle in a bottle") that counters all the negative effects of ethanol in your gasoline. Just sell it...it doesn't matter if it does anything or not.

Todd S. "who thinks the whole "ethanol" thing is just a way to make elected officials feel good about themselves" Malicoate

[Tom Waid]

Ethanol has a definate negative effect on boats.

[windshieldbug]

I'm not positive what you meant by "New Old Stock parts." Do you mean original parts (say, made in the 70s) still new in the box?

That's what "NOS" means; spare parts that were made at a prior time, but still unused in the original packaging.

This also happened in a different way to some cars that were expecting lead when the country switched over to unleaded fuel.

[iiipopes]

One reason ethanol is not good for watercraft is that it attracts moisture. The other reason is that there are certain types of rubber fittings and hoses it will dissolve. I am having the same issue with my Jaguar E-type convertible. I live in a state that mandates ethanol blended gasoline. I know my neoprene gaskets in my SU carburetors are going to dissolve. I have contacted all the hobby clubs and other people who should know about this stuff. All they can do, including those who research it for a living, is shrug their shoulders and say if they do dissolve, there will still be replacements on the market. I've rebuilt my carburetors from scratch once. It's not fun. I don't relish the prospect of doing it again. But until I can get some better answers, all I can do is carry on wondering when they are going to die on the road.

Good luck! If you come across something that deals with the alcohol, please let me know!

[DonShirer]

In May, I noticed the miles-per-gallon display on my car's computer made a significant gain. I asked the dealer when I took it in for lubrication if there was a reason for it. He said that in summer gas companies put less ethanol in the mix, resulting in better mileage. Somehow this didn't seem right but I was unable to verify or disprove this anywhere. Any ideas?

[tofu]

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[iiipopes]

In May, I noticed the miles-per-gallon display on my car's computer made a significant gain. I asked the dealer when I took it in for lubrication if there was a reason for it. He said that in summer gas companies put less ethanol in the mix, resulting in better mileage. Somehow this didn't seem right but I was unable to verify or disprove this anywhere. Any ideas?

That's exactly right. Ethanol has a lesser BTU rating than gasoline, so with the ethanol blends, you can get up to 20% fewer miles per gallon.

[MaryAnn]

Now THAT should help with the fuel crisis; put in an additive that gets fewer miles per gallon than if we didn't use the additive....smacks of a system put in place to give profits to people who are paying for the privilege of making those profits, to the people who passed the laws forcing us to use ethanol.

My bicycle is looking better and better every day.

MA

[tubatom91]

I drive an unrestored 1937 Buick. It has a straight 8 engine in it with a single action fuel pump. All the parts are original as of today. I have a new manual pump on the way. I am replacing the fuel line from the fuel filter to the front of the car (it is looking rough). I have gone through 3 electric pumps and just finished off the diaphram in the manual pump.
>>>>The car sat primarily unused for about 20years and now I am driving it alot more and am "finishing off" the parts that are occasional replacements. I shredded the fan belt 2 weeks ago and left a gallon of boiling anti-freeze at a stop sign and babied it home.
back to fuel. The new pump I am getting is rebuilt and is made with ethanol resistant rubber parts (or thats what I am understanding). The manual pump was about $110 and a new electric pump that will handle ethanol, diesel, kerosene, etc. was $165. Needless to say I am taking the elec. pump out of the system and the car is going to be stock. Thanks for the positive feedback

[Nick Pierce]

Where can we get one of those bicycle tuba case things that one English guy had? Now that looks like a good idea.

No, I'm not joking, I'm seriously thinking it could be a good investment.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Isn't it amazing how many "I heard"s and "I believe"s you get when you start a discussion on something like this? Who are you going to believe, short of getting the imformation for yourself?

Well, wait no more! Go to http://www.ethanoltestkit.com and get all the information you need to build your own ethanol test kit from common, everyday items for only $49.99. Better yet, sign up to sell them yourselves...don't miss an opportunity to jump in on this cash cow! Pester your friends, annoy your relatives...make A LOT OF MONEY!!!

Don't rely on the internet or some "guy" on a message board about tubas or something...GO FOR THE SURE THING!!!

That's http://www.ethanoltestkit.com for all your gasoline testing needs. Get yours TODAY!

[tofu]

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[Todd S. Malicoate]

You might want to think about using distilled water during the warm weather months instead of anti-freeze. The old systems were not designed with anti-freeze in mind, folks added alcohol (in the radiator and not themselves ) to keep it from freezing during below freezing weather. I know it is a pain to swap back and forth, but I think you will find your car will run much cooler with just water. The cooling system just can't push the weight of anti-freeze well enough (especially at idle) and the old hoses/gaskets etc. don't get along with it that well either. Just an idea that has worked for a lot of folks I know and I personally switched over to water in my several cars of the period a few years ago and every one of them has shown a marked decrease in heat by using distilled water and not anti-freeze in the summer. Those Buick straight 8's were good engines for their day.

It is true that straight water dissipates heat more efficiently than a 50/50 antifreeze/water mix (but not much...around 5-10%). However, antifreeze raises the boiling point of the straight water...this is very important in the larger engines which can boil straight water easily in the hotter months, especially with an inefficient stock cooling fan. If your 1937 vehicle is stock, it probably runs at around a 13:1 combustion ratio...that's going to create a much hotter engine that you are used to in modern terms...it's not going to hurt anything, and the engine will actually be more efficient at the higher combustion temperatures!

The pressurized radiator cap also has the effect of raising the boiling point of the fluid in the system a bit more, so make sure it has a good seal.

If your stock water pump can't push an antifreeze/water mix because of the extra weight, you need a new water pump. The difference in weight is extremely small. An automotive water pump is a centrifugal pump, anyway...weight isn't really an issue as the fluid is flung by the impeller vanes.

Antifreeze is also important because of its anti-rust conditioners...even when the big auto makers were using water in their vehicles (before the early 60s), they added a rust inhibitor developed by Prestone starting in the 1930s. Running pure water with no rust inhibitors will ruin your water pump much faster than normal...the bearings will fail faster and the guts will corrode.

Enjoy the old car...sound like it would be fun to drive!

[tofu]

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[Todd S. Malicoate]

Oh, I totally agree that straight water runs cooler, and I said so in my post.

My point was that these older vehicles benefit from the hotter operating temperatures with increased efficiency/mileage (which, as you know, is terrible even under the best conditions). Also, boiling point can be an issue with straight water when these big old cars start running hot...the antifreeze helps guard against boil-overs. I say, let 'em run hot , just use some coolant to protect against boiling.

I'm fairly confident that the OPs overheating problem was the result of the shredded fan belt he mentioned in his post...straight water, coolant mix, or Country Time lemonade, it wouldn't matter what was in the radiator and block when the water pump isn't running.

That said, I think we agree on 95% of the content of both posts.

[Rick Denney]

If your 1937 vehicle is stock, it probably runs at around a 13:1 combustion ratio...that's going to create a much hotter engine that you are used to in modern terms...it's not going to hurt anything, and the engine will actually be more efficient at the higher combustion temperatures!

Huh? Pontiac increased the compression of the straight eight in 1935 to 6.2:1, and never was higher than 7.7:1 throughout its production period. 13:1 on a straight-eight would probably make short work of that spindly crankshaft.

Heat produced by an engine is directly related to the power it is producing. The Straight Eight, in 1937, was rated at 100 hp at 3800 rpms. That's not much by the standard of even that time, and the Ford Flathead V8 with only minor hot-rodding could toast it. That doesn't mean the radiator and water pump were all that effective, but the point is that the engine produces heat relative to power being produced, not to compression. (Compression leads to higher power, which gets used to accelerate the car faster, which then causes more heat.)

An earlier comment from someone complained that stock fans are often inefficient. This is not true in most cases (I don't know about a 1937 Pontiac, but I suspect the person who said that doesn't, either). Engine-driven fans with proper shrouds can usually move MUCH more air through the radiator than electric fans, and with more efficient use of power. The disadvantage to engine-driven fans has nothing to do with efficiency, it has to do with the inability to control them with an engine management computer to keep the engine at optimal temperature, the wear on the water pump shaft (which usually carried the fan) and the lack of durability of silicone-damped fan clutches.

But I agree that using plain water is a terrible idea. In return for a slight increase in thermal transfer, you get a lower boiling point, no lubricity, and no corrosion protection. My recommendation to those considering this: Don't do it.

Rick "no fan of the straight eight" Denney

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Huh? Pontiac increased the compression of the straight eight in 1935 to 6.2:1, and never was higher than 7.7:1 throughout its production period. 13:1 on a straight-eight would probably make short work of that spindly crankshaft.

Yeah, I checked the AERA specs and was way too high on my combustion ratio. There were two straight-eight engines in Buicks in 1937, the 248 and 320, both of which were in the 6.35:1 ratio range. They got a bit higher with the introduction of domed pistons in 1938, but not anywhere near 13:1. Rick is correct when he points out that high of a compression ratio would smoke that flimsy (and very long) crankshaft.

Heat produced by an engine is directly related to the power it is producing. The Straight Eight, in 1937, was rated at 100 hp at 3800 rpms. That's not much by the standard of even that time, and the Ford Flathead V8 with only minor hot-rodding could toast it. That doesn't mean the radiator and water pump were all that effective, but the point is that the engine produces heat relative to power being produced, not to compression. (Compression leads to higher power, which gets used to accelerate the car faster, which then causes more heat.)

Also spot on...my theory about the older car running hot was based on the assumption that they were higher compression engines. If you put higher compression pistons into a stock engine (that is, do a performance SBC upgrade or the like), you will notice along with the higher horsepower comes a corresponding increase in operating temperature and a higher fuel demand. But, since the old Buicks were actually lower compression engines than today, my theory is full of holes.

An earlier comment from someone complained that stock fans are often inefficient. This is not true in most cases (I don't know about a 1937 Pontiac, but I suspect the person who said that doesn't, either). Engine-driven fans with proper shrouds can usually move MUCH more air through the radiator than electric fans, and with more efficient use of power. The disadvantage to engine-driven fans has nothing to do with efficiency, it has to do with the inability to control them with an engine management computer to keep the engine at optimal temperature, the wear on the water pump shaft (which usually carried the fan) and the lack of durability of silicone-damped fan clutches.

Actually, I never complained that stock fans are inefficient as if that's a general rule, I just meant specifically in the case of the OP. My experience hanging around car shows and car-club guys at work for 18 years had led me to believe that older large engine vehicles run hot and don't cool well (the heaters are fantastic, though). I apologize if I've been misinformed...I didn't mean to present a general statement about all stock cooling fans. I know just enough about 70 year old vehicles to get myself in trouble.

Todd S. "who wonders how Rick did such a good job explaining the holes in my argument, but didn't notice we're talking about a Buick, not a Pontiac" Malicoate

Just kidding, Rick...I always enjoy your broad range of good information!

[Rick Denney]

Todd S. "who wonders how Rick did such a good job explaining the holes in my argument, but didn't notice we're talking about a Buick, not a Pontiac" Malicoate

Because I never read the original post. All I do is search for your posts and look for things to disagree with, heh, heh.

The problem of overheating on older big engines has more to do with poor cooling systems than hot engines. When I replaced the marginally designed radiator in my '73 GMC motorhome (Olds 455 engine that makes 300 hp and 400 ft-lbs of torque, and that gets asked to use it on every big climb) with a modern aluminum replacement, any hint of cooling problems went away. Lots of people have talked about finding original water pumps with the original cast 4" impellers instead of modern stamped impellers, and have talked about using this versus that radiator hose, auxiliary oil coolers, ports in the side of the coach to facilitate air flow out of the engine compartment, shrouding in front of the radiator, air dams to scoop air into the front of the radiator, and so on. All of these were band-aids applied to marginal radiators often made more marginal by years of sludge and corrosion (another reason to use coolant). The radiators were so marginal that GM spec'd a 9-psi cap because higher pressures would balloon the radiator tanks. Modern aluminum radiators usually have much more core capacity and stronger tank designs. The new one I installed was tested at 36 psi and I use a 16-psi cap. My motorhome's engine never gets more than 10 degrees above the thermostat value even when climbing mountains at speed (and having an Olds 455 means I can maintain that speed better than most motorhomes).

The guys who designed that radiator (and had it made by Griffin) were looking for a 30% increase in cooling, which they achieved. They have also been looking for an electric fan solution for that vehicle, but so far have found nothing that can compete with original fully shrouded 7-blade engine-driven fan and a heavy-duty fan clutch.

Rick "suspecting that 35-year-old Olds engine has more in common with the Straight Eight than with current engines" Denney

[tubatom91]

here's some car dorn for you guys, I really appreciate this discussion.