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I share my frugalness (sp??) with Bloke inasmuch as "I drive 'em until they're dead"! I have this '92 Olds Ciera that survived four years with my wife's son while he was in college. The car has 183,000 miles and still gets 30 mpg with a V-6! This car just refuses to die and has THREE deer kills to its credit. It did some 'interesting' things yesterday and from what I can gather from various Internet sites, it might be time to pay a little attention to the oxygen sensor and maybe the fuel filter. I doubt if either items have been touched since it rolled out of the factory! Does anyone know where these items are located? (OK, Wade... the answer I'm looking for IS NOT "on the shelf at Auto Zone!")

TubaTinker wrote:oxygen sensor and maybe the fuel filter. (cut) Does anyone know where these items are located?)

Piece of cake...both these items are inexpensive and easy to "do-it-yourself" on a 1992 Ciera with a 3.3 V6.

Oxygen sensor - This is the "master" sensor for OBD I computer systems like yours...it provides the most critical information to the computer to adjust the air/fuel ratio. It is screwed into the exhaust system...since you have a V6 and there is just one in the system, it is most likely threaded into the "Y" or "crossover" pipe where the two exhaust manifolds come together. Look down through the engine compartment at the exhaust system and look for a single wire sensor screwed right into the metal pipe. It is possible you will have to access it from below, however. These early one-wire, non-heated sensors should be replaced every 100,000 miles since the palladium, rhodium, and other rare earth metals in them are eventually consumed in the chemical reaction that produces the readings the computer needs. If you really haven't had this sensor changed at all in 183,000 miles, you really need to go ahead and change it...I'm amazed you've never gotten a "check engine" warning code from this sensor at that mileage!

Here's a picture of that oxygen sensor:

An oxygen sensor socket like this one:

is best to remove it with, but you can often get them out with an open-end socket if they're not too badly siezed up. Make sure the new sensor threads are coated with anti-seize which should be provided or already on there when you buy one (get a Bosch, and watch out for off-brands...the Bosch will only be about $20, anyway). Also, be careful not to cross-thread the new sensor when installing it...start it by hand for at least a couple of turns and you should be OK.

Fuel filter - Also important for good maintenance. I change these once a year, regardless of mileage, because they are quite easy to change and relatively inexpensive. Again, avoid the "cheapy" filter and spend the extra few dollars for a better one. A WIX (or NAPA Gold) fuel filter will be under $20 for your vehicle...it looks like this:

On your car, it should be located near the back driver's side tire (just to the side of the fuel tank) mounted to the frame in a fuel filter bracket (two bolts, usually take a 10mm socket). You will want to relive the fuel system pressure before disconnecting this filter, since the line to the filter keeps some pressure in it...letting the vehicle sit overnight (or around 8 hours) usually does well enough, but if you're in a hurry you can pull the fuse to the fuel pump, start the car and run it until it dies (fairly quickly), and try to start it again a few more times...that will get all the pressure out of the lines and make for a cleaner job. You don't need a special tool on this one...simply squeeze the little white tabs to release them and pull apart.

Todd S. "who just recently renewed his ASE certification for the sixth time" Malicoate

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:

TubaTinker wrote:oxygen sensor and maybe the fuel filter. (cut) Does anyone know where these items are located?)

Piece of cake...both these items are inexpensive and easy to "do-it-yourself" on a 1992 Ciera with a 3.3 V6. ...... Todd S. "who just recently renewed his ASE certification for the sixth time" Malicoate

WOW! Thanks for the tips, Todd! I guess it's off to AutoZone in the morning.

TubaTinker wrote:WOW! Thanks for the tips, Todd! I guess it's off to AutoZone in the morning.

You're very welcome. But, don't you have a NAPA somewhere around there (cough, cough, Warrick Automotive)?

Let me know if you run in to any problems with the job...I'll be at work tomorrow and will have more resources there to help you out if you do. Good luck!

EDIT: I checked http://www.wixfilters.com" target="_blank, and it appears the fuel filter on your Ciera is actually closer to the rear passenger side tire! Kind of in the middle, actually...but I'm sure you'll be able to find the bracket without too much trouble.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:

TubaTinker wrote:WOW! Thanks for the tips, Todd! I guess it's off to AutoZone in the morning.

You're very welcome. But, don't you have a NAPA somewhere around there (cough, cough, Warrick Automotive)? .....

Yeah... the NAPA is 1.3 miles north and 2 miles east. But... I have an AutoZone a lot closer and they have always been helpful with diagnostics. I may just take the old 'beater' to my local guy in the morning if he has time to mess with it. My guess is that this would be a whole lot easier than jacking the car up and getting my 62 year-old fat a** rolled under it.

Meh...I wouldn't begrudge Dan for buying an O2 sensor or fuel filter from the place for a 16-year-old vehicle. I simply didn't want to help the competition!

Good luck with the car, Dan. Let us know how it comes out!

No problem, Wade...I just have a sore spot when it comes to the AZ word.

Dang low-priced Asian junk...flunky high school dropout no-nothing parts people...grrrr

I thought about this for a bit this morning and decided to try to find a mechanic who had the time to mess with 'Christine' (my pet name for this Old Cutlass Ciera). My first choice was closed. Two others are booked solid until next Wednesday. So... I just went to the (un named) auto parts store and purchased an oxygen sensor (made by Bosch) and the slotted socket in case I couldn't get to the sensor with an open-end wrench. I still didn't know EXACTLY where the sensor was located but figure I could find it. The guy at the parts store suggested it would be on the front side of the engine before the 'Y' pipe but I would probably have to get underneath to find it. Well... the offending sensor couldn't be seen on the front of the engine (sideways V-6) so I crawled underneath. It wasn't there, either! Soooo.... I looked a little further and there it was staring me right in the face.... just in front of the firewall in the top of the exhaust manifold. Piece of cake. A quick twist with the fancy-dancy slotted socket and it came right out. In just a few minutes I had the new one installed and went for a test-ride. Right away the "service engine light soon" came on. A short time later the light went out and began operating as it should. The 'surging' went away and it appears that 'Christine' is good to go for another 180,000 miles!

Thanks for your encouragement, Todd. Sorry I didn't make it to NAPA.

When AZ was A Shack (for those old enough not to remember), they were pretty good. Then they expanded nation wide and the service was never the same.

Tubaryan12 wrote:When AZ was A Shack (for those old enough not to remember), they were pretty good. Then they expanded nation wide and the service was never the same.

I really hate to burst your bubble guys but there are only a handful of parts manufacturers that the US parts stores purchase from. Branding is, in many cases, different (i.e. Autozone's Duralast vs. Sears Diehard) even though the components are the same. SO, the only real difference between AutoZone, Napa, Carquest, O'Reilly is truly customer service. That being said, all parts stores face similar challenges in terms of skilled help and turnover primarily due to the wage they are able to pay. Some chains are more convenient in terms of geography and hours. Right now, I buy my parts from AutoZone due to convenience. And, having been a mechanic/technician for over 15 years, really see no difference in the quality of product. Bottom line is you are just as likely to get a faulty part from one chain as from another.

Dan, glad you got the car fixed.

TubaTinker wrote:Thanks for your encouragement, Todd. Sorry I didn't make it to NAPA.

Glad to hear you got it done easily, Dan. As Steve pointed out, as long as you purchased a Bosch sensor it doesn't matter beans where you got it. Congratulations on the successful do-it-yourself project! You should feel good about getting it done yourself without having to shell out the hourly rate for a mechanic (apologies to anyone who makes their living in that profession ).

And, Steve, you didn't burst my bubble or offend me in the least. You are correct that 75% or so of the parts available at aftermarket parts stores are exactly the same with the exception of packaging and marketing. What is important to remember is that there are often several grades of quality within a specific product line (alternators, starters, batteries, electrical parts, etc.). Also, warranty is not an indication of quality.

As far as service goes, that of course will vary from place to place and store to store. It would be ridiculous of me to contend that customer service and salesman know-how will be better at any given NAPA store. It all depends on the guy or gal who happens to be across from you at the counter when you go to the store. The very best solution is to do some research on your own before you go to the parts store...use the online websites to see what each place offers and make a decision before you go.

steve_decker wrote:

Tubaryan12 wrote:When AZ was A Shack (for those old enough not to remember), they were pretty good. Then they expanded nation wide and the service was never the same.

I really hate to burst your bubble guys but there are only a handful of parts manufacturers that the US parts stores purchase from. Branding is, in many cases, different (i.e. Autozone's Duralast vs. Sears Diehard) even though the components are the same. SO, the only real difference between AutoZone, Napa, Carquest, O'Reilly is truly customer service. That being said, all parts stores face similar challenges in terms of skilled help and turnover primarily due to the wage they are able to pay. Some chains are more convenient in terms of geography and hours. Right now, I buy my parts from AutoZone due to convenience. And, having been a mechanic/technician for over 15 years, really see no difference in the quality of product. Bottom line is you are just as likely to get a faulty part from one chain as from another.

Dan, glad you got the car fixed.

I agree. My comment was only a commentary on their size. I noticed the change within a few years of the expansion. (same thing can be said for your average lumber yard or hardware store Vs. the Home Despot....not to mention what happened to Wal-Mart). That being said, I still buy parts there for the same reason you do....but I won't buy lumber at the HD unless every other place in town is out of wood.

These are great tips. Our car turned 100,000 and I changed the brake pads and rotors, had a new serpentine belt put on, changed the PCV valve, and had her tuned up but wasn't sure what else to do. I didn't realize the oxygen sensor would be pooped ouy by 100k. I'll take the good advice and get er' done.

elimia wrote:These are great tips. Our car turned 100,000 and I changed the brake pads and rotors, had a new serpentine belt put on, changed the PCV valve, and had her tuned up but wasn't sure what else to do. I didn't realize the oxygen sensor would be pooped ouy by 100k. I'll take the good advice and get er' done.

An oxygen sensor won't necessarily poop out by a certain mileage. Over time, the performance of an O2 sensor will degrade but this is much less of a concern on pre-1996 vehicles. I've been a mechanic, worked as an automotive repair instructor, and now work for a supplier and I have yet to change an O2 sensor as a matter of maintenance. I'm not saying it's a bad idea but it certainly is not crucial.

steve_decker wrote:I really hate to burst your bubble guys but there are only a handful of parts manufacturers that the US parts stores purchase from. Branding is, in many cases, different (i.e. Autozone's Duralast vs. Sears Diehard) even though the components are the same. SO, the only real difference between AutoZone, Napa, Carquest, O'Reilly is truly customer service. That being said, all parts stores face similar challenges in terms of skilled help and turnover primarily due to the wage they are able to pay. Some chains are more convenient in terms of geography and hours. Right now, I buy my parts from AutoZone due to convenience. And, having been a mechanic/technician for over 15 years, really see no difference in the quality of product. Bottom line is you are just as likely to get a faulty part from one chain as from another.

There are times when the parts source matters. For example, I will not put a Fram oil filter on any vehicle I own. Sometimes, NAPA has stuff from the better manufacturer and AZ (or, worse, Advance Auto) doesn't. I can find Wix filters at NAPA, but not at Advance, where the best I can do (good enough) is AC. Another example is belts. Dayco and Gates have gone to metric widths, and have sized their 15-series belts down to the same width as their 13-series belts. For most older cars, this isn't a problem, but it is in my application. Goodyear and Kelly-Sprinfield belts (same manufacturer) still have the proper width, as do the premium belts from NAPA (Todd--PBH prefix). Autozone has Kelly belts, but Duralast belts are Gates, as far as I know. No matter what store you enter, you have to know exactly what you want and what to look for.

It's the dolts behind the counter, but frankly I don't find NAPA to be generally any better than the others. All of them are nailed to the computer and don't know how to look for a part by appearance or function rather than by make, model, and year. So, if I want to explore, say, the heavier-duty fan clutches used on General Motors cars as potential replacements for what I have, I have to do that research on my own. I never find anyone at any parts store that can help. It's been that way for a very long time.

NAPA stores are franchises and vary quite a lot from store to store, so I would not want to generalize too much. Autozones and Advance Autos (and Pep Boys) are much more uniformly unhelpful. At NAPA, there is at least the possibility of finding someone who knows their stock.

Ever since I worked as a professional mechanic, I never expected good mechanicking advice from guys at parts stores. There were some good mechanics at parts stores, but usually only to the limit of their own vehicle.

As far as replacing the O2 sensor goes, if the plugs look decent (light tan) and the mileage hasn't degraded, I would not bother. Those are tests of the mixture quality as much as anything. When an O2 sensor goes bad on those older ECM's, the engine may switch from closed-loop to open-loop, but then the open-loop table stored in the computer might be just fine for your purposes.

I have two Toyota trucks that run as good now as they ever did. Both have computer-managed fuel injection and both have (as far as I know) original O2 sensors. Both have over 180,000 miles.

Rick "who would lay Kroil on that O2 sensor every day for a week before attempting removal if it's that old" Denney

Nicely summed up as always, Rick. It is important to remember that no two parts stores are alike in terms of employee know-how, no matter what the name on the marquee says.

Sorry you can't find the counter help you need at NAPA in your area...I suppose I am lucky to work for a boss who values training and ASE certification. My first job in parts was in Lawrence, Kansas where I was also fortunate to learn a great deal from some great parts professionals who were (and this is extremely rare in this business) willing to help newbies who were willing to "learn the ropes." The store I work in now in Stillwater has 3 full-time counter guys who would all be very comfortable opening a NAPA Temp (Murray) illustrated buyer's guide and going through the variety of options for a fan clutch that would fit your car (starting, of course, with the specs of the "correct" one and finding alternatives that would also "bolt up"). Our 4th counter guy, who works noon-close, is the only one tied to the computer, as you put it...interestingly enough, he's a former night/weekend manager at AutoZone. Of course, quality night/weekend help is difficult to find anywhere you go.

Interesting point about the PBH belts being available at the original stock widths, but I'll have to correct your terminology in calling them NAPA's "premium" belts...those PBH belts are the "inexpensive foreign made option" to the NBH line (25- numbers made by Gates). Usually, the PBH belts are around 1/2 the cost of the corresponding NBH number. You can see a comprehensive list of the NBH belt sizes available at http://www.napabeltshose.com (the parts ID guide is a pretty large PDF). There are still quite a few "in-betweeners" in the catalog.

Well... after a couple of days and a few 'flashes' from the 'service engine soon' light again... I finally broke down and had 'Old Christine' put on a diagnostics machine. The bad news came back that it's poor little 'mass air flow sensor' was shot. On many late model cars this is a $50 part. But... NOT on a '92 Cutlass Ciera 3.3 liter. The labor isn't bad but the part was $270! I thought at first I was being ripped off until I checked several Internet sources and found this part going for up to $340. Oh well.... it's still less than a months car payment! 'Christine' is immortal. She lives on.

TubaTinker wrote:mass air flow sensor...'92 Cutlass Ciera 3.3 liter

Illustrated part here

$201 with exchange is retail at NAPA. On a "high-volume" garage account this is probably around $150-$175 (I'll check at work in the morning). NAPA part number is XTP45419 (Remanufactured unit made in the US by A-1 Cardone).

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:

TubaTinker wrote:mass air flow sensor...'92 Cutlass Ciera 3.3 liter

Illustrated part here

$201 with exchange is retail at NAPA. On a "high-volume" garage account this is probably around $150-$175 (I'll check at work in the morning). NAPA part number is XTP45419 (Remanufactured unit made in the US by A-1 Cardone).

Be careful, now. I've been mistaken before. But, I think the one you are quoting is not for a '92 Cutlass Ciera with a 3.3 liter engine. Here's the correct one:
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/searc ... Oldsmobile

Expensive little buggers!.... but still less than a monthly car payment!

TubaTinker wrote:Be careful, now. I've been mistaken before. But, I think the one you are quoting is not for a '92 Cutlass Ciera with a 3.3 liter engine.

It's the correct one, unless the napaonline site catalog is incorrect. I'll check the paper catalog in the morning.

FWIW, Cardone's 65419 part number is a new unit. 45419 would be the corresponding remanufactured unit.

EDIT: Confirmed at work this morning...the part I linked above is correct for your vehicle. "Master Installer" price is around $175. If you have any mechanic "buddies," they might be able to purchase it for you at this lower rate...that sort of thing, just like quality of counter help, depends a great deal on the individual store.