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It is asinine that there are people out there that think teachers are "over-paid and under-worked." I'll give a very recent example to show just how inaccurate that is. My mother, who teaches 1st grade at a public elementary school, has this child in her class that is so volatile that he has to be put in a safe room with no one and nothing around him that he could subsequently hurt or use to hurt others or himself with until the authorities, let me repeat that, THE AUTHORITIES come in and restrain him and take him away. In the process of having to do this, my mother had to sort of corral him into the room (considering it's illegal for teachers to put their hands on a child in order to keep them from hurting anybody or running away) and in the process of doing so, this little hellion slapped my mother across the face so hard that it knocked her glasses off of her head and across the room.

IN ADDITION to having to deal with this child on a daily basis, she also has to teach a classroom of about 25 6 and 7 year-olds, where literally 85% of that class/school (I am not making this up.) just came over from Mexico and cannot speak very much English at all. How much does she get paid, you may ask? About $14,000 per year. There are recent studies putting the national poverty line at $18,000 per year.

Under-paid? I think so.

As for being over-worked, anybody who has ever had children (not that I have, but I have had to work at a daycare center) can attest to the fact that keeping tract of and teaching your child can be a VERY trying experience. Imagine having 25 children and having to come up with lesson plans every day that cater to EACH and EVERY one of the students' learning needs ('cause let's face it, not everybody learns everything the exact same way). When executing these lesson plans, each classroom has to be split up into multiple groups centered around learning the same thing in different ways. One group for the kids that learn by doing, one group for kids that learn by reading, one group that learns best on computers, etc. etc...

That is a monumental task for two people, a teacher and a parapro, to undertake. If that's not enough, if one child doesn't do well in school, the teacher can be put on the burner as the person responsible when that teacher did everything right in the classroom. If the parents don't make their kids do their homework or help support what knowledge the child picked up at school while at home, it makes the job that much harder for the teacher, because, with our poorly thought out "No Child Left Behind" Act, a school is put on academic probation, if you will, if less than 80% of the school passes certain standardized tests. Imagine having all of that on your mind as one of the students in your classroom tells you time and time again they don't have their homework and they don't understand the topic when they were doing well on it just the day before.

Being a college student, I pride myself on being able to successfully take a ton on my plate, but I don't think I could last a day in my mother's shoes...partly because my feet are too big for the physical shoes, but when it comes to the figurative part of the equation I don't even come close. I think I have provided enough information to prove at this point that teachers are over-worked as well as under-paid. Anybody that believes otherwise needs to go try it for themselves for one year and see if they aren't in a mental institution afterward.

ignorant columnist wrote:Teachers, by contrast, get their money from taxpayers.

No.

Some teachers get their money from taxpayers.

Any response I have beyond that veers into politics. Sorry.

The article's value comes from it being thought-provoking not, in my opinion, accurate or reasonable. Specific to the issue at hand, I truly have a hard time being sympathetic with teachers (or anyone that gripes about their chosen profession). At this point, the debate about teacher's wages has been so prevalant that I cannot imagine anyone being unaware of it prior to choosing teaching as a career. To me, that negates the entire argument that teachers are not paid enough. If they knew their potential earnings when they were considering the career and chose it anyway then they obviously entered the field for reasons other than future financial gain. In most cases teachers earn what many of us would consider to be a reasonable wage while reaping what many of us would consider to be exceptional perks/benefits.

...okay, I really can't say anymore without commenting on teacher performance and pissing a bunch of people off

steve_decker wrote:The article's value comes from it being thought-provoking not, in my opinion, accurate or reasonable. Specific to the issue at hand, I truly have a hard time being sympathetic with teachers (or anyone that gripes about their chosen profession). At this point, the debate about teacher's wages has been so prevalant that I cannot imagine anyone being unaware of it prior to choosing teaching as a career. To me, that negates the entire argument that teachers are not paid enough. If they knew their potential earnings when they were considering the career and chose it anyway then they obviously entered the field for reasons other than future financial gain. In most cases teachers earn what many of us would consider to be a reasonable wage while reaping what many of us would consider to be exceptional perks/benefits.

...okay, I really can't say anymore without commenting on teacher performance and pissing a bunch of people off

Okay, I see your point about teachers choosing their profession based on things other than future financial gain, but that does NOT mean they have to endure (technically) below minimum wage pay. The fact that they love teaching that much is great, but love can't pay the bills which I am very sad to say. These teachers may be getting paid about $25.00 per hour, but they take the cumulative 8 to 9 months worth of pay and spread it out in 12 monthly paychecks. The only teachers I know of that are decently payed are those that have been teaching for 25 years or more. Even then, the most a teacher can make, even with a master's degree (which is required of teachers nowadays) it doesn't exceed $40,000 dollars in most cases. In order to live comfortably at that point you would have to marry someone making between $60,000 and $80,000 in order to support a family of 4.

They do get good benefits, that is true, but that's the ONLY reason why most under-paid teachers stay in their profession. They wouldn't be able to afford health or life insurance if it wasn't offered by the schools. For instance, My mom would have to shell out close to $1,000 per month on her diabetes prescriptions alone...that doesn't include car insurance which, due to my sisters tickets, is about $400 per month, rent, which is $840 per month, or gas and utilities, about $500 including the cable, water, and electrical bill. She gets paid about $1,000 a month, mind you. With the benefits she has working in a school, she's left with about $500 a month for food, gas, and other essentials. Now tell me, how many people would be willing to stay with a job like that if it meant they wouldn't be homeless?

Oh, and on the subject of teacher performance, (which according to you, judging by your response to the article, is not up to par with your expectations) teachers do all they can to teach the children in their classroom without
going home with them and making sure they do their homework. This epidemic of under-achievement stems not from teachers unwilling to take responsibility for the performance of their students, but from the parents' unwillingness to take responsibility for their own child's conduct at home by, again, not making them do their homework, not paying attention to their kids and just putting them in front of the TV, buying their young children (ages 4 to 6) video game systems accompanied with Grand Theft Auto IV, and parents telling their kids that nothing is ever their fault, that there's always someone they can put the blame on beside themselves. We are creating the laziest generation this country has ever seen and parents don't want to accept the fact that they are one of the major contributors to this outcome.

By the way...You're not "pissing me off," all I'm trying to do is prove my point. I'm not holding your views against you.

Doug@GT wrote:

ignorant columnist wrote:Teachers, by contrast, get their money from taxpayers.

No.

Some teachers get their money from taxpayers.

Any response I have beyond that veers into politics. Sorry.

I'm sorry, bud, but there are federal documents proving that the money the government uses to pay teachers' wages comes primarily from property taxes. I might be veering close to the realm of politics, but I hardly think, if all the teachers (who seem to be the target of much loathing and contempt for reason that are not clear to me) gave up teaching and the responsibility of teaching our children fell back on us, we would become another 3rd world country...that's just what I think would happen in that situation.

knuxie wrote:Now I know in certain private schools, salaries aren't on the level with public schools BUT $14,000/yr?? I know subs that make more than that in our supposedly low income school district.

I'm assuming he must mean take-home pay. That said, the numbers don't exactly "work out" in many of his statements. My favorite was the need for $100K to $120K to live "comfortably" with a family of four. Ah, the idealism of youth. I suppose if you really need all the "stuff" that advertising pushes on the public...

Using extreme hyperbole to made one's point inevitably leads to a flame-fest. Here's hoping it doesn't happen in this thread.

bloke wrote:There are 180 days in a school year.

A typical school day is 7:30 - 2:15...basically seven hours.

Including all of the "inservice" mess, extra days, and extra hours, let's assume that adding THREE hours on to each school day pretty much covers this. The math dictates 1800 hours. JUST TO BE REALLY SURE, let's paste on another 200 hours and round it on up to 2000 hours of work per school year.

Assuming that most school teachers make at least $40K/yr. (even in "The South")...and assuming that teachers put in 2000 hrs./yr., that's STILL gross pay of $20/hr...

...plus health care subsidies...plus pension subsidies...plus sick days...plus "personal" days...

I would assume that teachers with some years under their belts and Master/Doctoral degrees, pay would tend to be much higher than $40K...and I would also be willing to bet that there are quite a few teachers who put in less than 2000 hrs. work each year.

Whether they are paid enough or not, at least I've furnished some numbers that can be referenced (and/or bickered over).

bloke "who does not support the idea of public education, but generally avoids discussing politics by discussing economics"

Okay...my math isn't that good...but I am absolutely positive that in the state of Georgia, teachers with their masters and 25 years experience make $40,000 a year. The starting salary for that same degree is about $23,000. Doctoral degrees are another story. Most people in the school systems that have doctorates are administrators/principles that do not have to deal with children other than "disciplining" them. After a certain point, teachers are nearly forced to retire because, as they get older, it becomes harder for them to deal with a classroom full of children. Only college professors, school administrators, and some teachers with more than 30 years of teaching experience make more than $40,000 a year...at least in the state of Georgia. As for most teachers making $40,000/yr...most teachers with enough teaching experience to attain that salary have retired. The majority of teachers these days have 15 yrs or less under their belt.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:

knuxie wrote:Now I know in certain private schools, salaries aren't on the level with public schools BUT $14,000/yr?? I know subs that make more than that in our supposedly low income school district.

I'm assuming he must mean take-home pay. That said, the numbers don't exactly "work out" in many of his statements. My favorite was the need for $100K to $120K to live "comfortably" with a family of four. Ah, the idealism of youth. I suppose if you really need all the "stuff" that advertising pushes on the public...

Using extreme hyperbole to made one's point inevitably leads to a flame-fest. Here's hoping it doesn't happen in this thread.

No, I don't mean take home pay. I mean actual pay. I didn't quite know the figures for dollars per hour but I do know the totals per year. It might be a good thing to add at this point that my mom is on the para-professional part of that equation, thus she does make that meager salary, but someone who's been teaching for 10 years only makes about $10,000 more than that.

knuxie wrote:

How much does she get paid, you may ask? About $14,000 per year.

Tell me where this teacher works for this paltry sum? In the U.S.? This was a great salary for teachers IN THE 70s!!

Now I know in certain private schools, salaries aren't on the level with public schools BUT $14,000/yr?? I know subs that make more than that in our supposedly low income school district.

Ken F.

One little error with what I said before...I meant to include that she was a para-professional, not a teacher. She's missing 1 credit hour of math that would make her "highly qualified" enough, according to NCLB, to become a full blown teacher.

Tubman wrote:No, I don't mean take home pay. I mean actual pay. I didn't quite know the figures for dollars per hour but I do know the totals per year. It might be a good thing to add at this point that my mom is on the para-professional part of that equation, thus she does make that meager salary, but someone who's been teaching for 10 years only makes about $10,000 more than that.

Now I understand. Yeah, that would have been a good thing to point out in your first post, which was completely unbelievable. I was under the impression that your mother was a teacher, with a degree and certificate. $14K under those circumstances was hard to believe.

$14K / 9 months of school = $1555.56 per month.
$1555.56 / 21 work days a month (averaged out) = $74.07 per day
$74.07 / 8 hours in the work day = $9.25 an hour
Hardly "below minimum wage."

I don't wish to be critical of teachers' aides, but you can't really compare their workload or their qualifications (or their accountability to the parents) with those of a licensed teacher.

bloke wrote: bloke "who can f*** around doing nearly absolutely nothing and somehow manage to make $23K/yr"

Not too sure that was entirely necessary...but again you'll never know how much work it actually is until you do it for yourself. Not that I know personally, but I have had to watch what it's done to my mother over the past 19 years of my life.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:

Tubman wrote:No, I don't mean take home pay. I mean actual pay. I didn't quite know the figures for dollars per hour but I do know the totals per year. It might be a good thing to add at this point that my mom is on the para-professional part of that equation, thus she does make that meager salary, but someone who's been teaching for 10 years only makes about $10,000 more than that.

Now I understand. Yeah, that would have been a good thing to point out in your first post, which was completely unbelievable. I was under the impression that your mother was a teacher, with a degree and certificate. $14K under those circumstances was hard to believe.

$14K / 9 months of school = $1555.56 per month.
$1555.56 / 21 work days a month (averaged out) = $74.07 per day
$74.07 / 8 hours in the work day = $9.25 an hour
Hardly "below minimum wage."

I don't wish to be critical of teachers' aides, but you can't really compare their workload or their qualifications (or their accountability to the parents) with those of a licensed teacher.

That may be the case for teacher's aids, but try and imagine living off that much money with hungry mouths to feed...

Tubman wrote:Okay...my math isn't that good...but I am absolutely positive that in the state of Georgia, teachers with their masters and 25 years experience make $40,000 a year. The starting salary for that same degree is about $23,000. Doctoral degrees are another story. Most people in the school systems that have doctorates are administrators/principles that do not have to deal with children other than "disciplining" them. After a certain point, teachers are nearly forced to retire because, as they get older, it becomes harder for them to deal with a classroom full of children. Only college professors, school administrators, and some teachers with more than 30 years of teaching experience make more than $40,000 a year...at least in the state of Georgia. As for most teachers making $40,000/yr...most teachers with enough teaching experience to attain that salary have retired. The majority of teachers these days have 15 yrs or less under their belt.

Where in GA? In Fulton County a step 0 teacher makes $40K (http://www.fultonschools.org/employment ... -09/03.pdf). That is bottom of the barrel, no master's etc. teacher. As Joe said, $20 averaged out over a 12 month schedule. If you divide it over a 38 week/35 hour schedule that is 1330 total hours. Which is $30 an hour.

According to Wikipedia, Hancock County (as opposed to Hazzard County) is the poorest county in Georgia. I could not find a salary schedule listed, but I will use Florida as a reference. The highest paid county starting in FL is Palm Beach County (where I worked). The lowest paid county is approximately $13K less ($38 vs. $25K). Applying this as a proportion to GA, the lowest county should be $26K. While no great amount of income, it is still (rounding to 1400 total hours) $18.57 an hour.

While I was a teacher, my schedule was 6:50-1:50 every day, with one hour added (which was paid at my hourly wage) on Thursday. Most days I was out by 1:15 (the school day ended at 1:12, the extra time was planning, and I had no other "off" time during the day) with the blessing of the administration. I was awarded outstanding teacher and help increase (without "teaching to the test") FCAT scores by approximately 20% in two consecutive years. I had parents calling to put students into my classes, and I was always at or slightly over the NCLB size limits. Guidance counselors put "needy" and ESE/504 kids into my classes because they learn the content and were dealt with in a fair and disciplined manner. It was, IMO, an "easy" job.

With that being said, most teachers have hugely inadequate training. Universities do a shitty job of teaching them any thing of great use, and the education students themselves are no longer subjected to learning the material in a rigorous manner. I taught after 8 years of "real world" experience in which I had deadlines, budgets, and customers to deal with. This training made me very efficient and allowed me to do my job quickly and effectively. For me, I thought the pay was more than fair. Plus, I got out wicked early and went to the gym for 2 hours a day five days a week. I was benching over 400 pounds and doing 900 pounds on the leg press (all plate weights, no cable machines). Of course I did this to keep a certain "image" as I dealt with many youth that had gang affiliations. However, I never felt "threatened".

I really don't have an opinion of over vs under paid. It varies case to case. In general, I feel the pay is relatively fair. If it weren't, basic economics would kick. It is really pretty simple.

bloke wrote:

One little error with what I said before...I meant to include that she was a para-professional, not a teacher. She's missing 1 credit hour of math that would make her "highly qualified" enough, according to NCLB, to become a full blown teacher.

Oh...just a tiny detail omitted. She isn't a certified teacher. Don't take offense when your animated protests omit - *surely* - the most important detail of the salary equation.

$14K (take home?) isn't too bad for a para-anything who works 180 days/yr.

bloke "like someone else figured, roughly ten bucks an hour...and I never stated that I thought the teaching profession is a good bidness. I got out of it less than a year after I got into it...thirty years ago."

That is, again, NOT the take home salary, her take home salary is more around $12,000. Look, people make mistakes and I tend to make more when I'm trying to solidify my argument due to how my brain tends to work. I'm doing my best to make my point clearer, so please try to be a little less hostile.

Matthew Gilchrest wrote:

Tubman wrote:Okay...my math isn't that good...but I am absolutely positive that in the state of Georgia, teachers with their masters and 25 years experience make $40,000 a year. The starting salary for that same degree is about $23,000. Doctoral degrees are another story. Most people in the school systems that have doctorates are administrators/principles that do not have to deal with children other than "disciplining" them. After a certain point, teachers are nearly forced to retire because, as they get older, it becomes harder for them to deal with a classroom full of children. Only college professors, school administrators, and some teachers with more than 30 years of teaching experience make more than $40,000 a year...at least in the state of Georgia. As for most teachers making $40,000/yr...most teachers with enough teaching experience to attain that salary have retired. The majority of teachers these days have 15 yrs or less under their belt.

Where in GA? In Fulton County a step 0 teacher makes $40K (http://www.fultonschools.org/employment ... -09/03.pdf). That is bottom of the barrel, no master's etc. teacher. As Joe said, $20 averaged out over a 12 month schedule. If you divide it over a 38 week/35 hour schedule that is 1330 total hours. Which is $30 an hour.

According to Wikipedia, Hancock County (as opposed to Hazzard County) is the poorest county in Georgia. I could not find a salary schedule listed, but I will use Florida as a reference. The highest paid county starting in FL is Palm Beach County (where I worked). The lowest paid county is approximately $13K less ($38 vs. $25K). Applying this as a proportion to GA, the lowest county should be $26K. While no great amount of income, it is still (rounding to 1400 total hours) $18.57 an hour.

While I was a teacher, my schedule was 6:50-1:50 every day, with one hour added (which was paid at my hourly wage) on Thursday. Most days I was out by 1:15 (the school day ended at 1:12, the extra time was planning, and I had no other "off" time during the day) with the blessing of the administration. I was awarded outstanding teacher and help increase (without "teaching to the test") FCAT scores by approximately 20% in two consecutive years. I had parents calling to put students into my classes, and I was always at or slightly over the NCLB size limits. Guidance counselors put "needy" and ESE/504 kids into my classes because they learn the content and were dealt with in a fair and disciplined manner. It was, IMO, an "easy" job.

With that being said, most teachers have hugely inadequate training. Universities do a shitty job of teaching them any thing of great use, and the education students themselves are no longer subjected to learning the material in a rigorous manner. I taught after 8 years of "real world" experience in which I had deadlines, budgets, and customers to deal with. This training made me very efficient and allowed me to do my job quickly and effectively. For me, I thought the pay was more than fair. Plus, I got out wicked early and went to the gym for 2 hours a day five days a week. I was benching over 400 pounds and doing 900 pounds on the leg press (all plate weights, no cable machines). Of course I did this to keep a certain "image" as I dealt with many youth that had gang affiliations. However, I never felt "threatened".

I really don't have an opinion of over vs under paid. It varies case to case. In general, I feel the pay is relatively fair. If it weren't, basic economics would kick. It is really pretty simple.

Rockdale County....damn...I keep forgetting how much it varies from county to county. That being said, their pay still doesn't go up that much with time, which I guess is much like other professions....

You know what? I came into this with a pretty strong opinion, backed it up by research and personal/experience (aka listening to my mother talk to her teaching buddies whenever I would go over to her school after the work day) and it seems there are as many variations on the same information as there are opinions on this subject. So, I think I'll just leave it at that and take a break...

Tubman wrote:That may be the case for teacher's aids, but try and imagine living off that much money with hungry mouths to feed...

For clarity's sake..."Para-Professional" is the new, PC term for what used to be called a "Teacher's Aide."

As to the original point, I agree that a fair number of teachers are poorly paid and completely acknowledge that they are under-appreciated by many. They are not alone in either distinction as a profession.

Tubman wrote:
Okay...my math isn't that good...but I am absolutely positive that in the state of Georgia, teachers with their masters and 25 years experience make $40,000 a year. The starting salary for that same degree is about $23,000. Doctoral degrees are another story. Most people in the school systems that have doctorates are administrators/principles that do not have to deal with children other than "disciplining" them. After a certain point, teachers are nearly forced to retire because, as they get older, it becomes harder for them to deal with a classroom full of children. Only college professors, school administrators, and some teachers with more than 30 years of teaching experience make more than $40,000 a year...at least in the state of Georgia. As for most teachers making $40,000/yr...most teachers with enough teaching experience to attain that salary have retired. The majority of teachers these days have 15 yrs or less under their belt.

Being a resident of the fine state of Georgia, I know many, many teachers who do not make $40k/year. They are all quite a bit higher than that. In fact, if memory serves me correctly, that's about where most of them started 5-10 years ago. I also happen to know that, in Michigan, $40k is roughly the beginning of the teacher's payscale. All in all, not too bad for a college graduate. When factoring in a graduate degree that gives them the potential to reach approx. $75-80k... it really isn't bad at all. And, btw, the middle school my oldest son attends has many teachers with 15+ years. Funny thing is I haven't heard many of them complain about how difficult their job is and how underpaid they are.

Now this may be none of my business but if 1 credit was all that separated your Mom from roughly doubling her salary, why has she toiled away for 19yrs as a Parapro earning only $14k? That, to me, just doesn't add up.

Being a resident of the fine state of Georgia, I know many, many teachers who do not make $40k/year. They are all quite a bit higher than that. In fact, if memory serves me correctly, that's about where most of them started 5-10 years ago. I also happen to know that, in Michigan, $40k is roughly the beginning of the teacher's payscale. All in all, not too bad for a college graduate. When factoring in a graduate degree that gives them the potential to reach approx. $75-80k... it really isn't bad at all. And, btw, the middle school my oldest son attends has many teachers with 15+ years. Funny thing is I haven't heard many of them complain about how difficult their job is and how underpaid they are.

Now this may be none of my business but if 1 credit was all that separated your Mom from roughly doubling her salary, why has she toiled away for 19yrs as a Parapro earning only $14k? That, to me, just doesn't add up.

Okay...at this point I feel pretty stupid...I made an assumption about how much normal teachers get paid and was totally wrong...man, I need to do better research before I go off on any more rants...haha!

As for why my mom toiled away for 27 years, to be more accurate (19 when I was alive...thus the observed over the past 19 years), she WAS married to my father, who, up till about 8 years ago when he got laid off, was making about $85,000. He got laid off and had to start back from scratch at the bottom of the totem pole as far as pressmen are concerned. So, they got a divorce last year originally intended to help pay for my college by making me eligible for the Pell Grant and the FAFSA. Now that my dad is not living in the same house as the rest of the family he decided to go through a mid-life crisis and stop helping financially, thus putting my mom's income back down to $14,000.

Tubman wrote:

Doug@GT wrote:
Some teachers get their money from taxpayers.

I'm sorry, bud, but there are federal documents proving that the money the government uses to pay teachers' wages comes primarily from property taxes.

You're forgetting teachers that aren't paid by the government at all.

Doug "who was simply making a subtle complaint that the article did not distinguish between private schools and public schools"

steve_decker wrote:The article's value comes from it being thought-provoking not, in my opinion, accurate or reasonable. Specific to the issue at hand, I truly have a hard time being sympathetic with teachers (or anyone that gripes about their chosen profession). At this point, the debate about teacher's wages has been so prevalant that I cannot imagine anyone being unaware of it prior to choosing teaching as a career. To me, that negates the entire argument that teachers are not paid enough. If they knew their potential earnings when they were considering the career and chose it anyway then they obviously entered the field for reasons other than future financial gain. In most cases teachers earn what many of us would consider to be a reasonable wage while reaping what many of us would consider to be exceptional perks/benefits.

As a recently retired member of the teaching profession, I'd like to briefly jump into this debate. I got completely tired of the point about more money. For me, the main issue was working conditions. Teachers are given much to do, with little authority to do it. If I had been able to buy sufficient authority for $500 of my own money, per month, I would have been happy to do so. I could have then done my job infinitely better. Instead, I had to deal with an untold number of obstacles. Each year, the first faculty meeting of the year would outline what the new ones were. I could go on and on about this. Fortunately for me, I no longer have that set of problems. America should be happy we are still able to get anyone to be a teacher. In my opinion, it has always been a calling. I have to believe that is the only reason someone with skills would join the ranks, these days.