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My definitions are a bit different.

1. Tweak - to make small improvements to an originaly poor design. An example would be cutting the slides on an O-99 so that the 4th valve becomes useable.

2. Repair - to fix damage or wear to bring an instrument back to it's original design specs, bad or good. An example would be replating and lapping the valves on an old horn so they seal again.

I like both.

Another variation that I use all the time when talking to players:

Repair - something any qualified repair technician can do (soldering, dents, cleaning, etc.)

Tweak - something that only a technician who understands and plays the instrument can do (Knowing where to look for intonation fixes, color changes, modifications, etc.)

Just a thought.

Not my definition, but an impression I get:

"Tweak" = can be done while I wait
"Repair" = have to drop off/pick up

Another one:

"Tweak" = invisible, "hey, how'd you do that?"
"Repair" = clearly visible, "I can see what you did"

tbn.al wrote:My definitions are a bit different.

1. Tweak - to make small improvements to an originaly poor design. An example would be cutting the slides on an O-99 so that the 4th valve becomes useable.

2. Repair - to fix damage or wear to bring an instrument back to it's original design specs, bad or good. An example would be replating and lapping the valves on an old horn so they seal again.

I like both.

This most accurately represents my use of the terms.

In other words,

- Tweak = to make minor adjustments away from the original design.
- Repair = to restore to the original design.

bloke wrote:When a factory valveset on a "high-end" tuba has slides that are not able to be used (because from one end to the other the tubes are .040" out of alignment and also not coplanar), REPAIRING this (to me) isn't properly described as a "tweak". Rather, it is a very involved REPAIR which (as the crook width is usually wrong for the ultimately correct tubing spacing, and the involved braces are usually one-piece) borders on re-manufacturing.

Assuming the manufacturer's design doesn't include the tubes being .040" out of alignment and not being coplanar (that the problem is a manufacturing flaw, not a design flaw), then I agree that is a repair, not a tweak.

The only tubas I've bought until recently have been from reputable repair men as used. They went through them and fixed them before I got my hands on them. I'm not used to buying a horn that is a POS. If I bought a new King, Conn, or anything that came with imbedded design or manufacturing flaws I would be livid! I might ship myself back to the factory in the tuba box, spring out and go postal. This is a ridiculous state of affairs that evidently the repair techs have been seeing for years. Makes you wonder why they don't just send all their manufacturing offshore.

the elephant wrote:

tbn.al wrote:The only tubas I've bought until recently have been from reputable repair men as used. They went through them and fixed them before I got my hands on them. I'm not used to buying a horn that is a POS. If I bought a new King, Conn, or anything that came with imbedded design or manufacturing flaws I would be livid! I might ship myself back to the factory in the tuba box, spring out and go postal. This is a ridiculous state of affairs that evidently the repair techs have been seeing for years. Makes you wonder why they don't just send all their manufacturing offshore.

But wait, it gets better…

Many times King (and Cerveny) assembly line workers will forget to use any solder on a tight-fitting tubing joint. It gets press-fit and lacquered. So it does not leak when new, but whack it and crack that lacquer and many times the joint will start to leak.

So it comes into the shop for a close but unrelated repair and because it wasn't leaking when it came in, the tech gets the blame. I don't like the direction my mind is moving me here. I quit buying new cars for this reason years ago. Right out or band directing I got a job as a assistant service manager in a Ford dealership. Didn't take me long to figure out whose car got the most attention anytime she wanted it, "the owner's wife's demo". We once had to rob the gas gauge off another tbird on the lot because she ran out of gas claiming the gague broke. Gague checked out perfectly, but whatever the boss's lady wants...... I now identify the wife's demo, notify the salesman to call me when it goes on the block, and go make a deal. I get a new car waranty at a used car price on a car that has had every little flaw fixed. After 3 of these, none have ever gone back in for even waranty work. Maybe the best horn to buy would be a factory pro's when the company gives them a new model.

the elephant wrote:

tbn.al wrote:The only tubas I've bought until recently have been from reputable repair men as used. They went through them and fixed them before I got my hands on them. I'm not used to buying a horn that is a POS. If I bought a new King, Conn, or anything that came with imbedded design or manufacturing flaws I would be livid! I might ship myself back to the factory in the tuba box, spring out and go postal. This is a ridiculous state of affairs that evidently the repair techs have been seeing for years. Makes you wonder why they don't just send all their manufacturing offshore.

But wait, it gets better…

Many times King (and Cerveny) assembly line workers will forget to use any solder on a tight-fitting tubing joint. It gets press-fit and lacquered. So it does not leak when new, but whack it and crack that lacquer and many times the joint will start to leak.

Don't confine this phenomenon to only certain brands. I have yet to take apart a Mirafone (or any other brand) that I didn't find something wrong... a miss-matched tube-end connection or a joint that was loose from the factory. I picked on the Mirafones because they are always touted as being the most consistent horns made. As far as manufacturing processes go... the Yamahas appear to me to have the best track record... especially in terms of part interchangeability. Some of the stuff I see when I take horns apart for dent removal really makes me wonder how some of these brands came to be respected.

bloke wrote:Well...

...If your nose was messed up, would you rather have it "repaired" or "tweaked" ?

I would rather have the opportunity to forcibly "tweak" the nose of the guy who screwed it up in the first place.

the elephant wrote:Many times King (and Cerveny) assembly line workers will forget to use any solder on a tight-fitting tubing joint. It gets press-fit and lacquered. So it does not leak when new, but whack it and crack that lacquer and many times the joint will start to leak.

Heh. I used clear epoxy to fill a gap in the solder joint on one of the second-valve slide tubes on the Cerveny-made Sanders I bought as a demo in the 80's. Makes me wonder who demoed it, and it also made me wonder about that play-testing done by...well...by someone. It sounded just like an open water key.

Rick "who drew the epoxy into the gap by pulling the slide to create a vacuum" Denney

bloke wrote:Well...

...If your nose was messed up, would you rather have it "repaired" or "tweaked" ?