Brakes

[tubashaman2]

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[Todd S. Malicoate]

Your Camry is a front wheel drive with front disc brakes and rear drum brakes. In that set-up, the work of stopping the car is distributed around 80% to the front and 20% to the back. For that reason, unless you have some sort of leak you don't need to worry about the rear axle...those brake shoes and drums are mostly used for a parking brake.

You are an educated fellow, so why not save yourself a tremendous amount of $$$ and simply purchase the parts you need (front brake pads - that is, a boxed set of four pads) and a Haynes or Chilton repair manual? This job doesn't require any special tools and is one of the easier "do-it-yourself" repairs. Either repair manual will give you excellent step-by-step instructions for replacing the pads.

Get a medium-grade ceramic-formula set of front brake pads for your car. If you "skimp" with the cheapest metallic pads, they just won't last very long, have inferior stopping distance, and are noisier from the get-go. At NAPA the pads you want are the "SS" line - the part number you need is SS-7441X and will cost you between $40 and $50. Try to find a parts store with a machine shop and have them resurface the rotors for you (another $10 or so per rotor)...this is very important so that the grooves in the worn rotors don't transfer to the pads and wear them down more quickly.

I have no knowledge of mechanics and their prices in Ohio, but around here a front axle brake job for a front wheel drive car will cost between $100-$200. You're basically paying for an hour of labor and the list price of the brake pads (often as much as double what you can purchase them for yourself). Some of the folks in your area may be able to chime in and give you some information on good, reputable mechanics there. I would avoid big chains like Midas, Firestone, Pep Boys, and other such places (just personal opinion there...I'm sure there are many fine examples of such stores, too).

If you decide to do the job yourself I (and, I'm sure, others on here) will be happy to "talk you through" the job. It's really not that difficult!

[tubashaman2]

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[Todd S. Malicoate]

Well, ok. Call/look around for brake job specials (usually something like $99.95 per axle). Ask them if machining the rotors is included (pay a little extra if it's not), and try to get a decent set of pads (ceramic, if possible) even if it costs a little more. Good luck!

[tofu]

James,

I don't see anything in your post that suggests your brakes are in need of repair. Assuming your brakes are in reasonable shape your real concern with snow and ice should be your tires. Since you're in the tire biz you know what kind of shape your tires are in as well as how good a tire they are. Even though your car is front wheel drive a good set of snow tires can make a world of difference. Buy a set of steel wheels and mount 4 snow tires. With your Discount Tire discount (I assume you get one) the cost is probably a lot less than a brake job especially if you had to replace rotors etc. If you don't get much of a discount look online at Tirerack (based in Southbend Indiana). They will drop ship to your door (or local tireshop) the tires or even the complete mounted tire/wheel balanced etc. I've had excellent results with them and nobody beats their prices even with the cost of shipping which is surprising cheap via UPS even for the last ones I bought 17 in 275/40 Michelon Pilots which is a good size tire.

But if your brakes are in bad shape by all means repair them. It amazes me the amount of people who drive on bad brakes. The way people drive today you gotta have good brakes just for self defense.

[Tom]

Anyways, the threat of ice and snow is making me worried about brakes. The car stops fine now, but I am wanting to be on the safe side, and I have no clue what to look for in brakes, as discount tire does not do anything with the brakes.

I can't comment about your brakes, but will say this about winter driving:

If you've never encountered snow and/or ice while driving, practice...yes, I'm serious about that. Find an empty parking lot (so there is nothing to hit and no ditches to end up in) and practice starting, stopping, turning, etc.

Another important thing to remember is that while they usually accompany one another, driving on snow is not the same as driving on ice. NOBODY can really drive on ice. You can't stop, start, turn, etc. on ice even if you have an outrageously heavy 4x4 (those guys are usually the first ones in the ditch, actually).

Winter driving takes concentration, good judgement, and control (driving within your limits). Always remember to watch out for the other guy, too, since even if you've got it together, they might not. The first couple of weeks of winer are usually the worst since everyone has forgotten how to drive.

I think snow tires have been discussed here before. I've never owned a set and have gotten around just fine in the upper midwest (IA, Ill, WI, MN) in the winter in a rear wheel drive compact pickup truck with an open differential (i.e. not "posi traction"). I did run lots of sandbags in the back and did carry a real tow rope, chains, and a shovel just in case I got stuck somewhere or slid off the road into a snow bank. The most important thing is that I was very aware of the conditions before I set out on a trip and I avoided driving around during some of the epic snow/ice storms. If you're nervous or feel unsafe driving in the winter, ride the bus around town.

Good luck!

[SRanney]

One day Todd, when I don't have tests to study for and bibliographies to write, I will do it myself.

As a graduate student, I'm surprised that you've got the funds to pay for a brake job. A mechanic will likely charge $300+ whereas doing the job yourself will cost $50-100 and only a few hours of time. I've been a graduate student now for a few years (ugh!) and routinely change my own oil/filter, give basic tune-ups (plugs, wires, etc.), and install new pads/shoes to save money. It's much less expensive than taking my Jeep to a shop plus gives me satisfaction of saving several hundreds of dollars.

[hijack]
As far as writing bibliographies go, look into a piece of bibliographic software like EndNote or Procite. Both have amazing ease of use in dropping in citations to your writing while automatically compiling the references section at the end of your document. The software even has a built-in section for your own research notes which then allows you to search your annotated bibliography by keyword. If you plan on continuing on in academia, it's worth the investment in getting to know a bibliographic software. The makers of EndNote have a webversion that I know nothing about, but your university may have a license that will allow you access to one or the others. Your reference librarian could probably help you out with all of this.
[/hijack]

Steven

[Tundratubast]

I have no comments on driving up north, good luck on the brakes

[Rick Denney]

If your brakes are working now, then jack up the front and remove the front wheels (I know you know how to do that!). Then, run your finger along the brake disk, and look at it. If it feels fairly smooth and doesn't have any gouges in it, then you really don't need to have it turned. If it's severely rippled or gouged, then the disk at least needs to be turned and maybe replaced. Put it all back together, drive it to a good shop, and get a brake job.

Then, look at the brake caliper. The caliper is a clamp that squeezes the disk, and there is an inspection opening in the caliper frame that allows you to look at the edge of the disk and the brake pads being squeezes against the rotor by the caliper. The pads are ceramic material bonded to a steel plate. You should be able to see the sandwich of the pads on both sides of the disk through that opening in the caliper. If you have more than 3/16" of pad material between the steel backing plate on the pads and the disk, then put the wheels back on and do this again next spring. If you have less than 3/16", go by the pads Todd suggested. Then, remove the two bolts that hold the caliper to the steering knuckle. Remove the pads--they just clip into place usually with metal clips of various sorts. Keep those unless the new pads came with replacements (they often do not). The caliper has a piston on the side where the hose attaches--the piston bears directly against one of the pads. Look at the soft rubber seal around the diameter of that piston--if you see ANY brake fluid AT ALL, then put it back together, drive it to a good shop, and get a brake job. You need new calipers.

If it's dry, then blow away the dust (carefully). Re-install the old pad on the piston side, and then use a big C clamp to squeeze the pad back down into the caliper. This will cause the piston to retract. When you do this, brake fluid will be pushed back into the brake fluid reservoir on the master cylinder, so remove the cap first. When the piston is fully retracted, then remove C-clamp and the old pad.

Replace the fluid reservoir cap. Install the metal clips on the new pads and clip them into the caliper in the same way the old ones were. You should be able to slide the caliper over the disk (that's why you had to retract the caliper piston). Bolt the caliper in place. Do both sides. Then, press your foot on the brake pedal--it will sink a bit as you push fluid into the calipers to take up any space to push the pads against the disks. Lift and press again. The pedal should be firm just like usual. The brakes may feel a little less effective for a few days until the pads wear into the disks.

DO NOT remove the brake hose from the caliper under any circumstances. Doing so will introduce air into the system and you'll have to bleed the brakes.

DO NOT take the car to a shop just to replace brake pads. Most shops will not put new pads on a disk that has not been freshly turned, because the brakes might squeal a bit as the pads wear into the disks, and that results in call-backs. But I have thrown new pads on old disks for years and years, and never had any problem doing so--ever--if the disk was reasonably smooth and not gouged or excessively ripply.

Inspect them first--chances are they are fine.

By the way, brakes are not a winter worry in particular. The cooling system and the coolant is the main winter worry. The trick to driving on snow and ice is to NOT apply the brakes strongly--and to avoid driving in such a way that you have to apply the brakes strongly.

Rick "remembering when replacing GM front pads was a 15-minute job that paid 1.5 flat-rate hours" Denney

[Tubaryan12]

If winter driving is your concern, follow these 3 tips:

1. DRIVE SLOWER!
2. Brake earlier and not as hard.
3. Don't tailgate.

[tofu]

A couple of other winter tips for you James. Make sure your battery is in good shape. Starting in cold weather is tough and a weak battery can leave you stranded at the worst possible moment. Batteries are relatively cheap and trying to squeak another year out of a marginable one doesn't make sense vs the downside of it failing and leaving you stranded someplace.

Also check your air presure in your tires at least once a month and more often in extreme subzero weather. You would be amazed how fast tire pressure drops in the cold and underinflated tires have a big effect on braking/handling plus as well as your gas mileage.

In addition to the driving tips offered above I would add to learn how to anticipate. Defensive driving can allow you to avoid being hit. Even if it isn't your fault in an accident the hassle of getting your car repaired and collecting from the other driver's insurance company is well worth avoiding if you can. With practice and a keen eye you will start to recognize patterns in drivers and driving styles and how to give these people space or let them pass so they can go have an accident with someone else.

And most important James - while driving strapping your horn in the back seat is far safer (for the horn) than in the trunk. Both from a ride standpoint (between the axles is a smother less jarring ride) as well as it is less likely to be damaged if somebody else is not paying attention, can't brake in time/slides on the ice and rear ends you. Of course if you have to leave the horn in the car while it is parked always place it in the trunk.

[TubaTodd]

Through many skids, scares and near-death experiences, I learned that, although logic would dictate that you should apply your brake in a cautious situation or as a reaction to a skid or other event, keep your foot off the brake. I about wrecked my Ford Explorer avoiding any idiot on Hwy 459. I jerked the wheel to the left and applied the brake. I started to skid so I jerked the wheel back the other way. After wobbling back and forth thinking the Explorer was going to flip, I took my foot completely off the brake and the truck just straightened out.

[tubashaman2]

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[Todd S. Malicoate]

From Camry brakes to Duckles...only on TubeNet!

[tubashaman2]

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[SRanney]

Regarding the bibliography project, I am sure all people who did their Master's degree in music did this....but you choose a source, for example, Symphonie Fantastique, and you find all relevant primary sources (for this project), annotate them, etc. in opera omnia editions, letters, treatises, original manuscripts/autographs and such....aka using the sources available in the library to the maximum. Our professor HATES the card catalogue and is teaching us to be true researchers haha (he is actually a widely published scholar). At times, it has been confusing, but I rarely have to use the online catalogue to look for stuff....I can just shelf read or use Heyer/Hill Collected Sets and the Duckles Guide to Reference and Research book ....

[hijack]
Hmm. We must be talking about two different kinds of bibliographies. I'm referring to a "References" section at the end of a research paper. EndNote and Procite are software that allow you to input the information (authors, year, title, journal, etc.) from articles, books, symposia, and book chapters that you have researched and read, catalogues that information (including any research notes that you wish to add) in a searchable file, allows you to insert citations into your paper when you need an in-text citation, and automatically builds your references section at the end of your document. You improperly inferred that I was encouraging you to cheat on your assignment.

Collecting pertinent information in the most time-effective manner is the best way to do research. If that means using the online catalogue, so be it. (I'm surprised that your library still has a card catalogue.) I generally use online databases (e.g., Fish and Fisheries Worldwide, Web of Science) to conduct some research, but have found myself browsing through the stacks of bound periodicals in my university's library as well.
[/hijack]

Steven

[tubashaman2]

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[eupher61]

Rotors anymore are cheap enough that most shops will just replace them, rather than turn them. $30-40 bucks for a new set. Oh, often that's because they're made so thin to begin with, that once a little wear has gone on them, there's not enough left to keep them up to spec.

As for winter driving specifically, in the MIami Valley area, you won't have as much snow as in Toledo or Cleveland, but it can be nasty. Worst I saw in Springfield was about 18" over a day and a half. Ice will be more of an issue. And, yes, NO ONE can drive on ice.

As suggested, as soon as there's enough on the ground to do so, have someone with experience drive you to a big parking lot, and practice. Drive fast and slow, slam on the brakes, spin from a start, fishtail, and do everything you DON"T want to do, so that when it happens you'll be able to correct. Turn INTO a skid on snow, on ice it won't matter much. IOW, if your back end is going to the left, turn the front wheels to the left.
With FWD you won't have as much fishtailing from spinning tires, but braking could be tricky. Again, as mentioned, DO NOT TAILGATE. DO NOT DRIVE THE SPEED LIMIT. DO NOT BUZZ YOUR MOUTHPIECE WHILE DRIVING unless you are really, really late for a gig or the most confident person on snow.
If the road looks clear, still be wary. Black Ice, as it's called, can be the deadliest thing around. I once hit a patch on an interstate, middle of a long 90 deg curve. I did a complete 360, from the far left lane across 4 lanes, and ended up about 5 feet from a wall off the far right lane. I didn't touch the steering wheel or the brake, that's what saved me I'd guess. Stay calm, and don't make any sudden wheel movements when it's slick.

oh, HAVE FUN!