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I'm asking Santa for new brakes for my Honda Element for Christmas. Yeah yeah. It ain't much. Any hoo, I've never installed brakes before, but after discussing it with a coworker and watching a detailed Youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K2OjKY5Fcw...with my coworker discussing it with me) I decided that it looks within my skill-set. Soooooo, there are a bunch of after market pads out there. Which ones would y'all suggest? I'm looking for good quality that will last, but not really anything high-end. Thanks

FWIW, my father-in-law tried to be helpful some months ago and installed new brake pads on my Dodge Caravan and my ----'s Toyota Highlander. The brakes made all kinds of horrible sounds and stopping was uneven, until she finally took the Toyota to a shop and had the rotors turned. I am just dealing with the annoyance on the Dodge as I can't afford otherwise. He said once the pads "cut in" they would be fine, but after almost six months it is still the same or worse.

Moral of this story: check your rotors. Pads are only one half of the equation.

MartyNeilan wrote:Moral of this story: check your rotors. Pads are only one half of the equation.

Mine still look decent.

bloke wrote:

If it is something that can be poured, it might be OK to buy it at AutoZone.

Alrighty then. Then where should I go and what should I buy?

For what it's worth, I got new rotors for my Saturn at NAPA for about the same price as having them turned. It may be worth your while to look into new ones instead of getting the old ones turned.

I know for my Cobalt my father in law who is a master mechanic took one look at my rotors and had me replace them. He says most new car rotors just aren't worth turning.

I think I will go with these for the front...

http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail ... 4293536297

and these for the rear...

http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail ... 4293536297

Don't get the "TS-X" pads...you'll be disappointed with their longevity. TS pads are value-priced to compete with the discount stores (for those customers who just "want pads" and shop around for the lowest price). Even though the TS-X series are ceramic and will be quiet, they just won't last as long.

Get the "SS-X" series for the front for only about $15 more. They're a significant grade better than the cheapest set and will last you nearly twice as long on average (assuming you're an average driver and not terribly "tough" on brake pads in general). Buy the "UP" or "AD" series pads if you can stand the extra expense...these are the best option available from NAPA and will last the longest...you really do "get what you pay for" with brake pads. Whatever you do, stay away from organic or semi-metallic pads of any kind from any supplier...these will be noisy on a vehicle like yours with OE ceramic pads.

You will very likely find that you don't need rear pads at all...often on 4-wheel disc vehicles the rear pads only need to be replaced when there is a defect such as a stuck caliper (you will see this by the lack of any brake lining on the inboard pad attached to the caliper piston). Inspect the rear pads by removing the tires and peering through the top of the calipers so you can see how much lining is left on the pads...anything more than 1/4" or so of lining (on both pads) and I wouldn't bother.

Do take the advice to have the front rotors (and rear, if you decide to do the rear pads) machined at a local machine shop (your local NAPA can probably do it there or will at least point you in the right direction). At our store, the cost is $8.00 a rotor. The machinists will measure the minimum width of your rotors and determine by the OE specifications if they are capable of being turned or if you will need to replace them. The adage that "most new car rotors aren't worth turning" is poppycock...having them checked is the only way to determine if they are still above spec enough to machine.

Your video is pretty good, but I have a couple of disagreements with his procedure. I wouldn't push the caliper piston back in with a clamp the way he does...it's a great way to push it in too far and rupture the seal (do this and now you're buying a new caliper). Use the old inboard pad instead to push with...simply flip it backwards and use the correct tool (NAPA part # 775-9093) to push on the back of the pad...the pad lining will "bottom out" against the caliper housing, leaving the piston perfectly backed into the housing. The c-clamp pushing surface is just too small to push with...it's easy to push too far and even possible to crack the piston. He does put a little text box in the corner of the video about the fluid being pushed up so you need to relieve the pressure...don't forget to remove the brake master cylinder cap in the engine compartment when you push the piston in, and for heaven's sake don't loosen the bleeder screw unless you're dying to bleed the brakes...it's not necessary.

You'll notice he didn't remove the caliper bracket and rotor for resurfacing and simply "sanded" the rotor on the vehicle to "remove the glaze." This is fine in a perfect world where the rotor isn't grooved AT ALL, but it's unlikely you'll find this situation. Removing the caliper bracket is easy to do (just two bolts), and these particular rotors on your Honda are retained on the front side by two large machine screws...don't forget to remove them before pulling the rotor forward off the wheel studs. If you have any trouble starting these screws, STOP and use an "impact driver" (looks like a large screwdriver that you hit with a hammer) to start them before finishing the rest of the way with a large Phillips screwdriver (probably a #3)...you DON'T want to strip these screws out! Have the rotors properly machined so you can have a mirror-smooth finish for your new pads to push on...the small grooves that you can't feel or see will transfer to your new pads if you don't and sanding just won't do anything to remove those (did he even sand the inboard side of the rotor at all?).

This brings me to another point...DO ONE SIDE AT A TIME WHILE LEAVING THE OTHER SIDE INTACT FOR REFERENCE. That little "sorry I forgot to show you the spring installation" caveat on the video could really screw you up if you pull both sides apart and don't have any reference to follow. You'll also be surprised how easy it is to forget how the caliper bracket or caliper is oriented or which pad is inboard and which is outboard...keeping one side intact is a great way to help you out when you forget how something goes back together.

I applaud the use of the brake caliper grease and where the video shows to use it...perfect. You might find smaller packets of the stuff at your NAPA...it's available in little $1.00 packs but not all stores stock it (NAPA part # is 765-3072 (VersaChem brand) or 09177 (Counterman's brand)). One pack per wheel is enough if they do have it. Skip the "Disc Brake Quiet," though...you won't need it. Use a thin coat of the synthetic caliper grease on the back of the pads and the back of the shim (between shims as well if there's more than one on the inboard pad). No need to goop it on...just cover the whole surface lightly. Also use a thin coat of grease on the metal clips ("pad guides") in the caliper bracket. Try to avoid getting any grease on the pad linings or rotor surface.

Bleeding is recommended after replacing the pads, but not absolutely required if you didn't disturb the bleeder screws. Many mechanics do it anyway because of the junk that gets into the system when you push the caliper pistons in...the fluid that builds up behind the piston in the caliper housing is often contaminated with nasty particulates. A hand-held pressure bleeder kit is a nice accessory to have and make bleeding quick and easy (with nice instructions as well). These kits are a bit under $50 at NAPA.

Good luck with the job...I commend your "do-it-yourselfer" attitude. If you run in to any problems during the repair, post them on this thread and I'm sure many folks with some brake repair experience will be happy to help. Best of luck!

Outstanding feedback. Thanks

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Don't get the "TS-X" pads...you'll be disappointed with their longevity.......Get the "SS-X" series for the front for only about $15 more.

Alrighty then! I will do that.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:You will very likely find that you don't need rear pads at all...

Unfortunately, I know I do.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Your video is pretty good, but I have a couple of disagreements with his procedure. I wouldn't push the caliper piston back in with a clamp the way he does...it's a great way to push it in too far and rupture the seal (do this and now you're buying a new caliper). Use the old inboard pad instead to push with...simply flip it backwards and use the correct tool (NAPA part # 775-9093) to push on the back of the pad...the pad lining will "bottom out" against the caliper housing, leaving the piston perfectly backed into the housing. The c-clamp pushing surface is just too small to push with...it's easy to push too far and even possible to crack the piston.

I have another video that shows the device you are talking about. I have every intention on purchasing the proper piston tool

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:He does put a little text box in the corner of the video about the fluid being pushed up so you need to relieve the pressure...don't forget to remove the brake master cylinder cap in the engine compartment when you push the piston in

Uhhhhh where/what is that?

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:For heaven's sake don't loosen the bleeder screw unless you're dying to bleed the brakes...it's not necessary.

Nick Saban: Aight!

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:This brings me to another point...DO ONE SIDE AT A TIME WHILE LEAVING THE OTHER SIDE INTACT FOR REFERENCE. That little "sorry I forgot to show you the spring installation" caveat on the video could really screw you up if you pull both sides apart and don't have any reference to follow. You'll also be surprised how easy it is to forget how the caliper bracket or caliper is oriented or which pad is inboard and which is outboard...keeping one side intact is a great way to help you out when you forget how something goes back together.

VERY good advise! I've been burned on other repair/replacement projects where I didn't leave myself a reference.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Bleeding is recommended after replacing the pads, but not absolutely required if you didn't disturb the bleeder screws.

Where are the bleeder screws? I want to make sure I leave them alone.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Good luck with the job...I commend your "do-it-yourselfer" attitude. If you run in to any problems during the repair, post them on this thread and I'm sure many folks with some brake repair experience will be happy to help. Best of luck!

Thanks. My confidence in trying this came from a coworker who is a car junky. He explained it to me, walked me through the video and said if I needed help that we could meet at his house or my boss' house (apparently he is a car dude too) and work on this together. I'll let you know how it goes.

BTW, I watched this video as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYnQxEjGq2A
It all seems fairly simple.

bloke wrote:Rotors definitely need to be smooth and in a perfect 90 degree plane to the axle in order for smooth braking to occur. If YOU pull and reinstall the rotors yourself, having them "turned" (ie: haved them TRUED) is usually a reasonably-priced venture...albeit something that extends the overall amount of your time that it will take to do the brake job.

As one who lives near the corporate center of AutoZone, Inc. (and even with a niece who has a fancy job there), I will tell you what many local mechanics say about things bought at AutoZone:

If it is something that can be poured, it might be OK to buy it at AutoZone.

As someone already suggested, check the purchase price of rotors. Replacements are often near the price of machining but will leave you with a reduced likelihood of pulsation and noise problems down the road.

As far as AutoZone, they have improved substantially in the quality of their parts over the last few years to the point that this ASE Master Technician has no hesitation whatsoever in buying anything from them. Bloke's comments about AutoZone really sound a lot like some of the comments on Asian tubas here (Yamaha=BAD, Asian tubas are junk, etc). You can come across good and bad quality parts at any store... even Napa.

[quote="TubaTodd"]Thanks. My confidence in trying this came from a coworker who is a car junky. He explained it to me, walked me through the video and said if I needed help that we could meet at his house or my boss' house (apparently he is a car dude too) and work on this together. I'll let you know how it goes.[quote]

Todd's lengthy advice is real sound on this job. There are a few minor steps or comments that I don't necessarily agree with but nothing that will result in any significant problem for you. Since you have enough hesitation in doing the job that you're asking folks that you work with and asking questions in this forum, I would certainly accept the offer of your coworker. You'll likely get the job done quicker, possibly better, feel a hell of a lot more comfortable with it (not much margin for error with brakes), and learn enough that you'll be set to do it on your own next time.

Steve "If you want me to do it for you it will cost $xxx. If you want me to show you how, it will be free." Decker

The shocking truth about AutoZone, NAPA, and the rest...

75% or so of the stuff is the exact same product in different "branded" packages. The biggest thing most people don't realize is the difference between "value-line" and "premium" products. If you just ask for brake pads, you might get cheap junk or good quality pads depending on the mood of the guy across from you at the counter. Most places have at least 3 levels of quality in pads and many other products and you truly do "get what you pay for." Be savvy, folks!

Ditto Steve. An experienced eye is wonderful to have around for your first brake job. My personal adage (that I share with customers often) is that I wouldn't want to do my first brake job (alone) on something I wanted to drive.

Oh, and don't worry about the bleeder screws...they are the small metal "pin-looking" things on the inboard side of the caliper near where the brake hose attaches. You have to turn them with a line wrench to "disturb" them so unless you mean to you won't open them and allow air in the system. No worries! The original video has a little box of text about removing the master cylinder cap or opening a bleeder screw to relieve pressure (when he's pushing the caliper piston in with a c-clamp) I just didn't want you to follow the "open a bleeder screw" advice.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Don't get the "TS-X" pads...you'll be disappointed with their longevity. TS pads are value-priced to compete with the discount stores (for those customers who just "want pads" and shop around for the lowest price). Even though the TS-X series are ceramic and will be quiet, they just won't last as long.

Get the "SS-X" series for the front for only about $15 more. They're a significant grade better than the cheapest set and will last you nearly twice as long on average (assuming you're an average driver and not terribly "tough" on brake pads in general).

I stopped by a few shops today to get prices and availability. NAPA had the TS and SS series in stock. I had the guy put a set of front and rears to the side until payday (tomorrow - Friday). I need to change my brakes (they are starting to scare me a little) and START Christmas shopping this weekend. No pressure.

bloke wrote:

TubaTodd wrote:I need to change my brakes (they are starting to scare me a little)...No pressure.

...and regarding the Xmas gift, just have your grandmother send me one of those delicious fruitcakes like she sent last year...WOW !!

Wow is right. Both by grandmothers have have been dead for a few years.

The only thing I'd add to all the advice (which has been good) is if you're going to work on your vehicles go ahead and invest in a repair manual specific to the year and model you have. You should find a whole rack of manuals at either Auto Zone or NAPA. Chiltons are generally ok.

If there are gotchas to your specific vehicle you'll probably find out by reading the procedures for your repair in these manuals. And if you have everything apart and find yourself confused about something it could save the day.

Update:

Well, the brake job has been take out of my hands. It turns out my wife had been making plans with her folks to buy me new tires and brakes for Christmas. We're supposed to leave in an hour or 2 to get all of that done. I am VERY appreciative.

There is only one problem. I have no idea what I want my wife to get me for Christmas. I hadn't thought past the brakes.