What is a bass trombone?

[Lew]

We actually dont' have a bass trombone, or a bass trombone player. My sister has a old "olds" Bass trombone, or so it was called one but according to people we've talked ot a Bass trombone back tthhheeen is a regular trombone now?

I doubt that. But measure the bore and length to be sure. The mouthpiece is the quick test, since most bass bones have a larger shank.

...

This thread got me thinking, what is the real difference between a Bass and tenor trombone? Bass trombones in brass bands used to be in G, and typically had slide extension handles because of the longer slide. Now that Bass trombones are primarily in Bb, is the only difference the bore and the number of triggers?

I have seen single trigger bass trombones with a 0.547 bore and a 9.5" bell, that don't seem too different from a King 4B. I have a Keefer trombone from 1919 that has a 9.5" bell, a 0.547" bore, and takes a large, bass trombone, shank mouthpiece, but has no trigger. Would this have been considered a bass trombone in 1919?

[Matt G]

Ahh, the confusion of the trombonists has onset...

A Tenor trombone comes in three styles:

Cheap-o student instrument. No trigger. Crica .500 bore. Approx. 7.5" bell. Small shank receiver.

"Jazz" trombone. No trigger. Bore between .490-.525. Bell between 7 and 8". Small shank receiver.

"Symphony" tenor trombone. Usually has an F attachment. Normally .547 bore. Bell is normally between 8-9" in size but can be a smidge larger. Large shank receiver.

The Bass Trombone normally has at least an F attachment and normally a second attachemnt in D or Eb. Sometimes they are dependent but normally independent now. Bore is .562, but newer models have a dual-bore slide with a .575 up-tube. Large shank receiver.

The "symphony" tenor grew out of older small bass trombones. From what I can remember, the old Conn 88H was basically a small bass or a dual purpose horn.

I , too, had a King 4B .547 tenor with no attachment. Pedals were pretty good, but for most "Bass" trombone work now there is just not enough sound in the extended lower range. The 9.5" and 10.5" large-throated bells and .562 bores help players who could be playing a book that stays below the staff 75% of the time, which can happen in much of the newer "big band" charts. For "orchestral" playing, the bigger bores help the player to play louder without breaking up, but normally at the sacrifice of pitch and lower dynamic timbre.

I had the priviledge of playing in a decent college orchestra brass section. On one concert, the principal bone played a Conn 36H (Alto bone). Probably the best we ever sounded. Most of the time he played an Edwards "Big-***-Tenor" bone. While he sounded great on it, softer dynamics were just soft, he had to be playing at mf or above to make it sound exciting, the color just wasn't there at mp.

I, personally, am waiting to see the next step. Maybe a .575 bore bass?

I heard the guys in the CSO say, in person, that they use bass trombone slides for the "loud" stuff on their tenor trombones. I thought that sounded like a pretty lame idea. Oh well.

[ThomasP]

www.yeodoug.com Go to that website and it will explain what the trend for bass trombones have been over the years and what he uses and owns for particular things. He won his first job I believe with a single rotor bass trombone. Having two valves does not make a horn a bass trombone, www.greenhoe.com this company now makes a double rotors for tenor trombones. Essentially the main difference is bore size, and sound. Edwards Trombone now makes a dual bore bass trombone slide that is .562/.578 just like tubas have changed in size so have trombones, Doug Yeo's website explains things pretty well. I hope this helps.

[smurphius]

As a tubist, I double on bass trombone, with the occasional picking up of a tenor trombone or euphonium. (I'm a bass clef kind of guy.) To maybe paint a picture in relation to tubas, the differences between a tenor trombone and a bass trombone are pretty well like the differences between a 3/4 or 4/4 CC tuba versus one a huge 6/4 CC tuba. Just like the difference in these tubas, the smaller horns (tenor trombones) are going to have a tendancy to be brighter and more brilliant in the higher registers. The low register simply won't be as full due to more resistence. Again, just like a 6/4 tuba, your bass trombone isn't pitched any differently but the size of the bore makes all the difference in the world in those pedal tones. The key element to all of this is the amount of resistence present. Smaller horn will naturally give more resistence, making it harder for low notes. The opposite is true for large horns.

One thing I've always found odd, and I've got a few other people who will second this. Keep in mind, I am primarily a tubist. I am used to using a LOT of air to play my instrument, however, the bass trombone, for whatever reason, takes more air. I can hold a Bb below the staff for MEASURES and MEASURES on tuba. Bass trombone, I'm lucky to get 3 measures at quarter note =80. It's a strange thing if you've never picked a bass trombone up before.

[Lew]

So based on these definitions the difference between a tenor trombone and a bass trombone is the same as the difference between a 3/4 sized and a 5/4 or 6/4 sized tuba. A CC tuba with a 0.658" bore and a 16" bell and a CC tuba with a 0.847" bore and a 19" bell both play in the same range, the only potential difference is the "color" of the sound. To call instruments with analagous differences in bore and bells by different names seems like semantics to me.

[Leland]

To call instruments with analagous differences in bore and bells by different names seems like semantics to me.

Well, yeah, it is. It does serve a practical purpose, though, simply because the naming conventions have labeled each trombone version according to what register they do better than the others. When you look to buy a bass trombone, you're not going to expect someone to offer a .500" bore 'bone with no F attachment and a 7" bell.

It's just easier to say "bass trombone" than "large bore trombone with a wide short slide, independent F and D attachments, and an 11" bell".

[corbasse]

Originally, when trombones entered the symphony orchestra at the end of the 18th century, they used a trio of 3 different sized trombones: alto, tenor and bass. (in Eb, Bb and F)
Later they started to play all parts on the tenor, but the name for bass stayed. So, technically speaking, a modern bass trombone is not a bass trombone, but a very large bore tenor with extensions to get the low notes. I'm doing the maths now to see what a 19th century bass mentioned by Baines had for a bore. It's already .571'' ...

[Mudman]

I heard the guys in the CSO say, in person, that they use bass trombone slides for the "loud" stuff on their tenor trombones. I thought that sounded like a pretty lame idea. Oh well.

Bigger slide = accepts more air = more power with less edge.

Few of us will ever get to play with a powerful string section like the one in Chicago. There are times when larger equipment helps produce a darker sound at insane dynamic levels.

And yes, these guys can play softer than any section on the planet. Jay Friedman is the king of soft.

[Teubonium]

I agree completely with Matthew Gilchrist's explanation.

In the 1950s I played a Conn 88h which was considered a bass trombone then. In fact, many at that time considered any trombone with an F attachment to be a bass, since the trigger enabled one to play lower notes.

Now the 88h is considered a "symphony tenor" and what we consider to be bass trombones have become bigger in bore and bell size.

[Matt G]

In the 1950s I played a Conn 88h which was considered a bass trombone then. In fact, many at that time considered any trombone with an F attachment to be a bass, since the trigger enabled one to play lower notes.
quote]

What are you talking about? The Conn 88H was always considered a large bore tenor. It was NEVER considered a bass trombone.

Nope.

Talk to some old t-bone players.

Look at some old literature.

[Teubonium]

What are you talking about? The Conn 88H was always considered a large bore tenor. It was NEVER considered a bass trombone.

Talk to some old t-bone players

I am an old tbone player and what I am talking about is what my trombone teacher in 1956 called his 88h which he let me use to learn F trigger. I also vaguely remember a c.1954 Conn catalog in which the 88h was called a bass trombone.

[dopey]

the trombone I was refering to is a Olds trombone. My sisters first trombone with a F attachment. The slide has a tuning slide on it? i dont' recall how it worked I just know that it has a tuning slide on the slide.

only 1 trigger, and the bell isn't huge. Iv'e seen bass t-bones @ all regions and this thing isn't that big. Ima guess its about the size of her bach strat.

We looked it up a while back and actually found a catalogue pic which showed it to be a Old's Bass trombone, which is why I made the comment I did about it being a bass trombone back then but is apparently a 'regular' trombone now.

[ken k]

Generally speaking also the bass bones use larger mouthpieces which help faciltiate the lower register and broaden the tone substantially. Of course there are exceptions with some tenor players using like Joe Alessi say using 1 1/2 G sized mouthpieces, but these guys are basically freaks and not human. Us mortals will use something more like a 6 1/2 or smaller to play above the staff for any length of time. I'd like to see some of these guys play a 4 hour dance gig on such equipment.

It is also pretty genre specific. For them most part jazzers will use smaller bore horns. classical guys the bigger bore horn. Again there are exceptions with some guys like Slide Hampton and others whose names escape me now who play bigger horns for a more mellow sound. Even the King3B was considered the bigger more mellow horn back in the 50s when JJ Johnson started using it.

Just like tuba playing the trend is going bigger and bigger.

ken k

[Shockwave]

A bass trombone is a trombone that sounds good playing low notes.

-Eric