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Another road trip question: I'm planning to buy a van. It needs to have enough room between the front seats and the back for me to sleep. (I'm not tuba sized but would like six feet.) I'm going to remove (not just "fold down") the seats other than the two front ones, and want a flat surface that is not a crawl space. I'm going to get a portable fridge, some sets of plastic drawers, and probably things I haven't thought of yet.

The other requirement, that is going to be difficult to meet, is a low seat height. I'm quite short between my knees and feet, with most of my leg length in my thighs. It is hard for me to find a vehicle where I can get my feet on the floor without having my legs dangle. Dangling legs are anathma to long drives.

I'd like really decent gas mileage and excellent reliability. It doesn't have to be new, but it has to have a great repair record according to Consumer Reports.

First choice based on the research I've done so far, would be the Sienna, but I don't know about the seat height problem. The rest looks like it could be worked out, but I also don't know if I would have the required flat surface after removing the back seats.

Once again, ideas? Recommendations? No, I don't want to set up a tent every night or stay in motels. I don't want a pickup with a camper; not enough room, too heavy, bad gas mileage. I have to do my own cooking; I cannot eat restaurant food or even food from the deli section at the grocery. I have *major* food allergies and simply must do my own food prep from scratch.

MA

I'm not very familiar with the Honda Element, but the interior space can be configured in a number of ways and might meet your criteria. I know it is not a van, but thought it would be worth mentioning.

http://automobiles.honda.com/element/" target="_blank

TMB

I JUST bought a Ford E-350. It is available in two lengths regular and extended, for passengers from 9-15. You can get the cargo variety. There are TONS of these around used. They are bullet proof, use regular gas, parts are easy to find and fun to drive.

Hi Mary Ann,

http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/transitconnect/" target="_blank

If you want to consider new see the above web site. Used - well are there any old VW vans in your area of the world. If you get a VW you then need the pre-requisite tie dyed tee shirt and bell bottoms.

bloke wrote:Dodge built the original minivan.

When they first came out (many years ago), my sister-in-law (your size) was surprised that she was able to sit in one, reach the pedals, and see over the dash.

As they were the very first, they (probably) are no longer "in vogue". My own Y2K Caravan, fwiw, has been driven for c. 250K miles with only routine types of repairs (and a couple of eBay or junkyard $100 computers). These seem to continue to improve, with a new generation every four years or so.

No one but you can choose a vehicle for you.

The seats of the two most recent generations of the Grand Caravan fold flat into the floor - "Stow and Go." I had no problem sleeping in the back of mine, with a tuba next to me and plenty of room for clothes and other stuff. Fortunately, as I am no longer married, I an not required to do that anymore.

My dear Aunt, who unfortunately passed a couple of years ago prematurely from a heart attack, was only 5' tall on a good day. For decades she drove full sized Ford conversion vans for all the errands she ran: fund raising for the local art museum and church organizations, hauling antique furniture of all kinds, and taking the entire family on vacation. Yes, the gas mileage was down somewhat, but with one of the "Captain's Chair" type of driver's seat, she could literally drive it cross-country. She routinely put many more thousands of miles on one with sets of Michelin tires than you would have otherwise expected.

If you can find a good Caravan, go for it. My mother-in-law had an 88 that she (with a little help from me traveling to softball tournaments) put over 250K miles on. Would go anywhere, great to sleep in, and the seat height is what you're after.

Having just bought a Sienna and looking at every review on minivan's, my recommendation is:

1/2. (Push) Honda Odyssey or Toyota Sienna. Honda was rated higher in Consumer Reports but the Sienna has more cargo space. If you get the LE or better model of the Sienna, it has height adjustable seats. The XLE and Limited edition has second row reclining seats with an extendable ottoman foot stool. The We like the Sienna. Drives like a sedan. Our teenagers love the room in the back (son plays F horn and daughter plays tuba and need room for hauling horns to their lessons). I also need room for tubas and stuff for National Guard since I take another guy in our band to drill. For our AT in the summer, we have to pack for two weeks.
3. Kia Sedona. I looked seriously at this one due to the price and extras. I would have bought one if the dealer didn't sell the one we had on hold.
4. Mazda 5. A compact minivan but very good ratings. Seats six but the third row is a little cramped. Was too small for our needs but drove great like a hatchback.

Hi MaryAnn,
Chrystler Corporation invented the minivan.
My sister (Lord rest her soul), left me her "88 Dodge minivan. She loved it. So did I. I sold it to a lady who needed to haul many kids and their scateboards and bikes.
It's still going strong.
I bought a used Ford Windstar van and hated it. It put me down. I traded it to get an "08 Dodge Grand Caravan for $13,000 - a former rental van with 47,000 miles on it.
I love it. Everything that made me mad about my last three cars is super fine on this Dodge.
It has stow away seats (easily removable) and under floor storage.
I'm gonna drive the wheels off of this one.

VW invented the minivan. When I was a kid, I remember many families who 'thought a little differently' who had a VW van. Waaaay underpowered but the idea was there.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why VW never seriously tried to compete with Chrysler, et. al. They marketed a series of four wheel abortions that simply killed the market for them

The latest models are really good but they are frightfully expensive. $30K out the door.

I wouldn't have thought to look at Caravans or the F350, but the info presented here has caused me to put them on my list.

I don't really need a van to drive like a sedan, although of course it's ok if it does. My Forester drives like a truck but the thing is immensely solid. And my truck, of course, drives like a truck....if I have power steering I'm all set. Both vehicles are stick shift; I haven't yet reached the point where I see the logic in owning an automatic. Sticks are incredibly reliable if you don't beat on the clutch or the gearbox. You can even push one to get it started, which to my knowledge you still can't do with an auto.

Thanks for the suggestions.

MA

I like the honda element suggestion. not a van but it might have enough room for you. It will definitely have better gas mileage than most vans with the 4 cylinder. You may find some of the older Caravans with 4 cylinders also. Mazda has a new "Mazda5". It is a mini-minivan with a 4 cylinder. Dont know if it would have enough room for you but it would be very economical. a very slick vehicle, check it out. you can get them with a stick although they would be harder to find than the auto.

here is an example:

http://www.buyrichsautos.com/details.as ... 01&s=8471A" target="_blank

I like my Mazda MPV minivan it is not as big as most of the others. Gets 18 - 20 mpg on trips. My wife is not very tall 5' 4" and drives it.

check out a VW camper van, Vanagons had 4 cylinders the newer ones had the VR6. I don't know if they make them anymore. the new VW vans (Routan) are basically rebadged Chryslers.

k

bloke wrote:The Toyota-made Pontiac Vibe features a peppy Celica 4-cylinder engine (hopped-up Corolla engine) and is one of those "4-cylinder"-size (small) vans. I believe the Toyota model name is "Matrix". I've passively shopped for these, but have never been in real need of a car or van when I found a deal on one. I believe the gas mileage is up in the 30's, particularly with the manual shift (which is the only one I would personally consider) version. I believe the first year edition (only - maybe 2003) offered a 6-speed manual transmission. I've driven a 2003 with a 6-speed, and and found it to be a bit silly. I'd go for a later-year 5-speed manual.

All that being said, I don't know if it's big enough to suit your needs. To me, it's more station-wagon-like than van-like.

The six speed model is the Pontiac Vibe GT model. It was offered throughout the car's entire run (2003-2010) The gas mileage on those is high 20's at best. The 5 speed models get mid to high 30's as well as the auto if you stay less than 70 mph. 2003 and 2004 models will give you less problems. The '05 and newer models went to drive by wire for the throttle and have ECM issues as well. In addition, for most of the run, there was also an all wheel drive version. The back cargo area folds flat, as does the front passenger seat. The rear deck and seat backs are hard plastic, so hauling cargo is no problem.

MaryAnn wrote:I wouldn't have thought to look at Caravans or the F350, but the info presented here has caused me to put them on my list.

I don't really need a van to drive like a sedan, although of course it's ok if it does. My Forester drives like a truck but the thing is immensely solid. And my truck, of course, drives like a truck....if I have power steering I'm all set. Both vehicles are stick shift; I haven't yet reached the point where I see the logic in owning an automatic. Sticks are incredibly reliable if you don't beat on the clutch or the gearbox. You can even push one to get it started, which to my knowledge you still can't do with an auto.

Automatics are reliable, too. And with computer-controlled drivetrains, they are more economical and easier on the engine, so they may even last longer. The reasons for preferring a stick are no longer valid, unless you just want to drive a stick.

By the way, an F350 is a big, honking pickup. The van is an E-350. E stands for "Econoline", which has been the name for Ford vans since the deeps of time.

But if you can find one, take a look at an early-90's VW Vanagon Campmobile. It fulfills all your requirements, and then some, especially if you get the camper version. They require more maintenance than a Caravan, but they may be closer to what you want. I don't know about the seat height issue, though.

Rick "who has only had to push start one vehicle in the last 25 years, and it had a manual transmission but with a &*(*&$#! clutch safety switch" Denney

bloke wrote:- My RELIABLE TOYOTA (right, Rick...??) automatic transmission with only 80K miles bit the dust about a year after a complete transmission servicing by a shop that is beyond reproach.

Uh-huh.

'94 Camry--the Redhead's car. We traded it with 190,000 miles. Automatic transmission was fine.

Current Lexus RX-330 has 150,000 miles. No problems.

Current Subaru Outback has 118,000 miles. No problems.

Buddy's Mercury Transporter (or whatever), traded with 394,000 miles. And, yes, the transmission had finally given out.

In the mileages listed above, replacing a clutch half a dozen times would be typical for urban drivers. The cost of replacing a clutch in a modern front-drive transverse drive-train is significant--usually requiring pulling the engine/transmission combination and separating them on the bench. Been there, done that.

Back in the old days, the GM Turbohydramatic 350 needed rebuilding every 75,000 miles. But it was cheaper to rebuild it even in constant dollars than it is to replace a clutch in most modern vehicles. When I was a mechanic, I could R&R a Turbo 350 in 45 minutes. Not any more.

Everything in recent vehicles is far more reliable than it used to be, with appropriate care. But clutch plates are wear items just like brake pads, and replacing them usually requires replacing the clutch and resurfacing the flywheel, and all of that requires removing the transmission from the engine.

But it is not true any longer that automatics are fuel or power hungry. They all provide computer-controlled lockup torque converters that let the torque converter convert torque for startup and then lock up for economy. They also can be controlled to maintain the engine at the preferred RPM's to achieve the best economy.

Both of my trucks have manual transmissions, so I'm not biased. I'm just reporting what I know.

If you like driving a stick, buy a stick. But don't be smug about it.

Rick "recognizing that not many of Bloke's vehicles are particularly recent" Denney

For those of you who keep recommending SUVs, I *have* an SUV (my Forester) and it is not big enough for what I want to do. I don't want to crawl inside and sleep; I want to be able to cook, wash, sleep, work on the computer, etc in it. For tiny little me, a van should be big enough if I don't need to stand up. If I were tuba-sized, I doubt that the difference between an SUV and a van would be enough to make a difference.

I owned a one of those VW campers and it was the most unreliable vehicle I've ever had. Thing would NOT stay fixed. Something would break, it would cost $400 to fix it, and then two months later same thing would break. Not with a ten foot pole! Yes, it was really, really nice for camping, but not the vehicle for a 60+ me to be driving around in the boonies.

Once again, thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to look into a few of these vans.

MA

MaryAnn,

Do you live anywhere near a carmax (or some such car superstore)? There are two carmax stores near me. What I would do is check their inventory online, then schedule an appointment and go check out some vehicles.

I would like to throw my 2 cents out there for the Dodge/Freightliner/Mercedes Sprinter. A diesel one will get 25mpg and it has more interior space than a dorm room I lived in while in college.



I might also suggest that you're actually looking for an RV, not a van. Some quick web research tells me a "Class B campervan" is what you're looking for. Have you considered renting such a thing rather than buying one?

EDIT:
I just went and checked out used dodge sprinters on http://www.autotrader.com" target="_blank. There's one on there with 440,000 miles on it. There are also several with over 300k and and several over 200k. There are tons of them over 100,000 miles.

I LOVE my E-350 (see attached)

I found a used, commercial version of the E150 for sale here. Bare bones, which is fine with me except for the lack of windows in the back. Three years old, 12,000 miles, one owner, about $9000 sale price. This dealership does *not* dicker, which goes along with their very low pressure sales force. The only problem is that the EPA mileage estimate is 13-15 mpg, which is considerably below what I find acceptable. It has a V8, which I assume is part of the problem, but I imagine that a V6 is only going to be marginally better. The seat was about one inch too high for my leg length, but if that were the only problem I could probably make something to "raise the floor" to rest my feet on.

I also have been inside a Nissan Quest (didn't like it) and a Honda Odyssey (sp?) and have yet to be inside a Sienna or Caravan. While the Ford was basically perfect for what I want to do, I'd have to change some of my desires about mpg before I'd buy one. I could buy this with the plan to use it and then sell it, but....I'd probably lose a couple thousand selling it, and then would that make up the difference in gas cost? No matter what I buy, it's a whole lot easier to buy than to sell, and my experience is that if I want to sell something quickly, I have to sell it for less than I paid for it.

Next question: does anybody know of a good tent-type system that you attach to the back of a van, so that you have a van-tent combo?

MA