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I like Rosetta stone. I've done parts of it and have seen the results. There is no doubt that if you work at it daily and make a commitment it will take you further as any similarly prices, 1 semester college course could. (The whole set of Rosetta stone can be purchased for $400, that's less than the cost of tuition for one 3-hour a week course, right?)

Have you tried the demo?
http://www.rosettastone.com/demo" target="_blank

The real question is: will you make a 30 minute commitment to it every day?

If you are dedicated and put the time in, you will see the results.

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Without saying that you should look around at your school for a class, I would check the library and/or foreign language centre to see if they have a copy of it you could borrow. When I was an undergrad, the Pimsleur German and Spanish courses were installed on 10 computers in the library and any student could use them. Your school might have Pimsleur or Rosetta stone.

Also, why not have a look at eBay or Craigslist?
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Lastly, if the money is the issue preventing you from going forward, why not comb the internet for free resources for a while. While I have not looked at all the resources available, I know there is a lot of free information available.

A few hundred dollars, all things considered, isn't much of a gamble. As a musician, you already know and value the importance of practice, so keeping up with that work ethic already puts you at a good starting point.

And also similar to playing tuba, learning a language in isolation only takes you so far. can speak a bit of German, but can understand it much better after having gone to Germany.

I'll just suggest you make sure you don't end up with my experience with Pimsleur. I got that one because I wanted something to do during my commute and it was entirely on CDs. I got quite far with my chosen language, and then tried talking to a native speaker. The speaker said that basically what I had learned was inapplicable as the idiom was incorrect and the way sentences were put together did not fit how she spoke. I could probably have made myself understood, but what was being taught was not the way the language was actually used.

So....find out if "graduates" of Rosetta Stone can converse reasonably well with native speakers, before you commit.

MA

russiantuba wrote:Before anyone suggests that I take these languages in the university setting, I would like to hear more about the Rosetta Stone program and if it works or not. I have had some very negative experiences with college language classes in the past. Assigning 50-70 words to memorize every class along with a grammar rule I feel isn't an effective way to learn the language. Also, I feel expecting to be able to give a 15 minute speech entirely in a said language and writing several essays in class without a dictionary after 15 months of learning the language and expecting extreme perfection does not help acquisition (I don't remember much of the language).

So, based on your (one?) experience, you "feel" you know more about how foreign languages should be taught than people who teach them in an university as a profession.

Maybe it's just not an effective way for YOU to learn a language, but that's a whole lot different than saying their methods "aren't an effective way to learn the language." That's pretty insulting to people who teach foreign languages.

russiantuba wrote:Todd, I have many friends with similar experiences with language classes. Im actually in my 2nd language course. One professor said he was sorry they had to do it that way because the 2nd year professors had expectations of language requirements upon entering. In a Spanish class, when 25 of 30 students have had 3 years of honors Spanish in high school with passing AP scores the university didn't take..."I can't keep these students bored for those without past experience, though the class assumes no prior knowledge". For many institutions to have accredation, they have certain expectations, not on the professors.

I know how I learn, and I learn languages at a slower rate than most, but our independent study course still requires the same amount. I have found when you cram 60 words a night at a student, you remember some...but not all.

The professor I mentioned earlier was one of the best non-music professors I have had, however he had to follow the strict rules of the department.

So, it's not the professor but the department that purposefully chooses an ineffective method of teaching students (well, at least you and your many friends - let's just continue to assume that everyone else is the same and this ineffective method doesn't work well for them, either).

Why do you suppose a foreign language department would do this?

advice:

http://youtu.be/iFcuqo_B1wY

russiantuba wrote:People learn at different levels. I really suck when it comes to learning new instruments, languages, etc, but after a few years of self study, etc, I seem to grasp the concepts and grow exponentially, that is if I have a solid foundation. I ask about Rosetta Stone because it will allow me to go at my pace.

Glad you understand that, and I totally agree. What I've been objecting to is your blanket condemnation of foreign language teaching methods in college as "bad" because they don't suit you. Such a blanket dismissal frankly makes you look like an arrogant douche. Even in your last post you speak as if you are an expert on how foreign languages are taught based on your extremely limited experience and your particular learning style's impact on that experience. As you have aspirations of teaching at the university level, my own experience doing that compels me to recommend to you that it is poor form to try and speak competently to a subject you actually don't understand very well. If you don't care about that, then never mind.

On Rosetta Stone, I regret that I have no specific information for you. I respectfully submit that a tuba forum may not be the best place to go to receive the information you're looking for.

ETA:

russiantuba wrote:Class piano classes generally move too fast.

See? Exactly what I'm talking about. According to whom? How much information do you have to draw this blanket conclusion that is, IMO, completely wrong? If anything, class piano classes move too slowly and allow students who should otherwise be learning something to get away with laziness, procrastination, and mediocrity.

russiantuba wrote:I feel collegiate level skills-based classes move too fast, and require too much out of students.

Stop the press. James Green "feels" that college is too hard.

Taking a step back here...

One of the reasons that learning a language in college is difficult is because you learn it in a different way than you learned English (or, it's been so long, it isn't a familiar process). Specifically, it's all the formal grammar rules and details that are confusing for a lot of people. I remember sitting in German 101 and wondering what the heck a "gerund" was, and even if that word was in German or English.

I think Rosetta Stone is designed to help bridge the gap there, and make learning another language more like how you learned your first language, and less about formal rules.

My German professor in college was a tough-as-nails (but very nice) Austrian woman, and our class had 8 people in it. Participation and talking in German was mandatory for every class, as well as oral exams. It was hard, but fun. Similar to what Mary Ann mentioned, my professor would frequently point out things like "people will figure out what you are saying, buy you will sound like a fool."

And to mention it again, traveling to places where people speak the language (even restaurants/communities in the US) is a huge help. When I have traveled in German-speaking countries, the people were always friendly and seemed to appreciate my broken German more than making them speak English. They would frequently correct my mispronunciations and that has been very helpful!

Bort has it right. Learning a language simply can't be done quickly and with minimal effort by listening to some CDs. It takes time and hard work.

Remarkably, just like skills classes in college. Dumbing those down works just like Rosetta Stone and other similar products...people will understand you but you'll sound like a fool.

russiantuba wrote:I have heard from over 100 people about piano who have never had it before, and I have never heard it moves just right or too slow...."Teach the student the concept, don't just teach the concept to the student"

You've gone from your experience to "many friends" to "over 100 people" in three posts. Sorry, I just call BS now.

Ok, everyone. Since James seems to think that his very small sampling is indicative of piano classes in music schools everywhere, I'll put it to the TNFJ.

Many, if not most of us, were or are music majors who were/are non-pianists. Do you think:

1) James is correct and piano proficiencies are too demanding and class piano lessons push too fast and too hard in order to satisfy accreditation requirements, or

2) I'm correct and piano classes (like nearly everything else) have been "dumbed down" so much that many students aren't challenged by them at all?

James says he's never met anyone who thinks class piano DOESN'T move too fast and that I'm just trying to cause trouble. I spoke to a tuba major just this morning who said he basically crammed for 30 minutes to pass his proficiency and thought the class was too easy.

Other opinions?

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Ok, everyone. Since James seems to think that his very small sampling is indicative of piano classes in music schools everywhere, I'll put it to the TNFJ.

Many, if not most of us, were or are music majors who were/are non-pianists. Do you think:

1) James is correct and piano proficiencies are too demanding and class piano lessons push too fast and too hard in order to satisfy accreditation requirements, or

2) I'm correct and piano classes (like nearly everything else) have been "dumbed down" so much that many students aren't challenged by them at all?

James says he's never met anyone who thinks class piano DOESN'T move too fast and that I'm just trying to cause trouble. I spoke to a tuba major just this morning who said he basically crammed for 30 minutes to pass his proficiency and thought the class was too easy.

Other opinions?

Anecdote:

At the school where I did my music majoring (BM in tuba, y'all!), an accredited (lolz) BA/BM/MA/MFA/DMA/PhD-granting school of music, it was a well-known rule that if you cried during your piano proficiency, you were passed.

I didn't cry, but I played well enough that I was offered the option to test out of half of the required piano courses (6 years of childhood piano lessons - I didn't play well, but I could sight-read enough of the textbook). I chose not to test out for two obvious reasons: I was clearly going to get 4 credits of instant, GPA-boosting A's, and my teacher, a DMA candidate, was one of the most beautiful women on the planet and I proposed marriage every class meeting. I got the A's, didn't get the girl, and now can barely hack through a four-part chorale book on the piano.



Todd & James: don't ever change. I love this thread. It's like the good old days.

Biggs wrote: Todd & James: don't ever change.

I might have left out the colon . . .

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Ok, everyone. Since James seems to think that his very small sampling is indicative of piano classes in music schools everywhere, I'll put it to the TNFJ.

Many, if not most of us, were or are music majors who were/are non-pianists. Do you think:

1) James is correct and piano proficiencies are too demanding and class piano lessons push too fast and too hard in order to satisfy accreditation requirements, or

2) I'm correct and piano classes (like nearly everything else) have been "dumbed down" so much that many students aren't challenged by them at all?

James says he's never met anyone who thinks class piano DOESN'T move too fast and that I'm just trying to cause trouble. I spoke to a tuba major just this morning who said he basically crammed for 30 minutes to pass his proficiency and thought the class was too easy.

Other opinions?

I took four semesters of class piano. Got good grades. Bombed the proficiency. Took private lessons, practiced my *** off, and passed the proficiency. I learned next to nothing in class piano. Not because the professors were bad, and not because the class moved too fast. I didn't learn much because I didn't take piano seriously enough, and was able to get away with it. It cost me dearly when I took the proficiency.

How are my piano skills now? Terrible. I stopped practicing after I passed the proficiency, partly because of the tendonitis I developed in my wrist from preparing for the proficiency (due to improper technique, I'm sure), and partly because I just don't like playing the piano.

TMurphy wrote:I took four semesters of class piano. Got good grades. Bombed the proficiency. Took private lessons, practiced my *** off, and passed the proficiency. I learned next to nothing in class piano. Not because the professors were bad, and not because the class moved too fast. I didn't learn much because I didn't take piano seriously enough, and was able to get away with it. It cost me dearly when I took the proficiency.

How are my piano skills now? Terrible. I stopped practicing after I passed the proficiency, partly because of the tendonitis I developed in my wrist from preparing for the proficiency (due to improper technique, I'm sure), and partly because I just don't like playing the piano.

That's exactly my perception. The class is so ridiculously easy and teaches you next to nothing in terms of real SKILLS.

That's also why I'm so amazed that a doctoral student who's been around academia for so long not only argues that the classes are too hard and push too much, but insists that EVERYONE agrees with that. It's preposterous.

FWIW, CNET.com has a deal on Rosetta Stone right now - save $130 and free next day air shipping:
http://reviews.cnet.com/marketplace/274 ... -2038.html Promo Code: rscnetexhol

I guess I don't fit the profile because I already played piano but took a semester anyway and frankly I don't remember why. What I DO remember was that it was not "class piano" but private lessons with a grad student. I was a violin major at Indiana; I passed the proficiency easily but we had to do not only SSB but some scales and a solo piece of our choice. I did a Bartok piece that I worked my butt off on, just because I wanted to learn it. I have no idea how many minutes a day I practiced, but I still remember working on the Bartok.

I don't know if IU has gone to class piano or not, but the private lesson scenario seems like it would have had a huge advantage over a class.

I'm someone who thinks piano should be everyone's first instrument (I started lessons at age 6) because of what it teaches you; you learn all the keys visually and retain that concept, you learn to read two different clefs in concert pitch, and you have to read two staves at the same time. Skills that everybody should have if you want to be a musician.

MA