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VERY off topic.

I remember some one of you guys referring to his spousal unit as She Who Must Be Obeyed.

At quintet rehearsal Saturday night we got onto that topic (started by the divorced Tbone player: he noted that if a woman says "there is a McDonalds over there" that the man is supposed to understand that she wants to GO there and he better turn in McDonald's or all heck will break loose.)

So the next step was someone said, "Men decide by heirarchy and women decide by consensus."

And that led me to thinking how can I tell these guys what the woman MEANS when she says stuff? (I work with guys, always have, and I've heard some pretty sad phone conversations in which the guy just really didn't get it and was taking punishment because of that.)

OK here it is, the consensus thing. Say I mention I'd like to go out to dinner tonight. He says nothing; by "female consensus rules" he has CONSENTED to going out to dinner tonight, because he DIDN'T say, "I'd rather eat at home." So I think a decision has been made, by consensus, and I'm not at all sure what he thinks, but yeah I'll get mad if there are no moves made to eat out tonight, because we AGREED to it. If he had said, "I want to eat in tonight" then there would have been more discussion until it appeared a consensus had been arrived at, whether it was eating out or at home. It's not that I expect to get my way, but that when I see an agreement has been made, I expect him to stick to it.

What most guys do, it seems, is unknowingly agree to something and then get really, really confused when she gets mad at him for not doing what he agreed to. (read that sentence again!)

I'm not saying who is right or who is wrong, or what way is right or what way is wrong!! I'm trying to show that the way *most* men and *most* women reach decisions is different, and that you who live with Someone Who Must Be Obeyed might just have a general communication difficulty that could be easily overcome. Better than having her mad at you all the time, isn't it?

MA, waiting for the inevitable firestorm

The best wisdom on relationships comes from the letter of our One Father alone.

1 Peter 3
Submission to Husbands

Serving and Suffering for God's Glory
1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3Do not let your adornment be merely outward--arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel-- 4rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.


A Word to Husbands
7Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.

After living in a family with three older sisters and being married, I would have to agree with your points. Most women take silence as a tacet agreement while most men take it as an absence of answer. I completely agree with this statement...

What most guys do, it seems, is unknowingly agree to something and then get really, really confused when she gets mad at him for not doing what he agreed to. (read that sentence again!)

...and yes, I did have to read it twice.
Though I have not been married all that long, we have ben together for quite a while. I would never have gotten this far without absolute communication. In general, the biggest problem I have seen with my friends' marriages is that the wife wants to talk, and the husband doesn't know how to talk on the same plane.

Sorry for rambling,
Sousie

MA, I think you're onto something, but I'd like to add another comment from the guy's point of view.

Guys, we tell our girls we'd climb the highest mountain, swim the widest river, cross the wilderness wild for them. If we mean it, we ought to appreciate them giving us an opportunity to do something nice for them once in a while. So if my wife clues me in that she'd like me to load the dishwasher, I figure I'm getting off light!

That's been my approach, and it's worked pretty well so far, but what you say about consensus definitely rings true.
________________________________
Joe Baker, whose Valentine is in class this evening

Doc wrote:Doc (who knows men are ALWAYS wrong anyway )

We're not wrong; it's just that we can't read minds.

My only beef here is that I was watching some segment on a cable news channel that had four women tell the anchorman what guys were supposed to do for Valentine's Day. Now, some things I can understand, like how lame it is to get her a perfume that comes with a free gift sack of cosmetics. But, what irked me was that they kept saying that guys "are supposed to know what we mean", especially when she says something about not wanting anything special.

Sorry, but if I hear, "Oh, honey, I don't need anything," then I'm going to listen to what she said, respect her wishes, and get her nothing. Crystal clear understanding, not LaToya Jackson psychic reading.

Maybe this is why Valentine's Day is my cheapest holiday...

If you want diamonds, say so. If you need a new rod&reel, say so. If I knew you wanted that new handgun or deer rifle, I would have bought it.

Doc, you are dead right on this one. On the flip side of the coin, I work with a guy, that each year for Christmas, his wife asks him what he wants. Every year he tells her he wants cordless headphones. Finally after 7 years of asking he bought them for himself. If husbands did that we would have some mighty cold nights. My wife isnt that bad but she does usually buy me what she wants me to have instead of what I really want.

One of the most umbearable parts of a relationship (at least to me) is when you feel like you're alone in doing something without the support of the other person.

My wife, bless her, NEVER makes me feel like I'm doing things alone and I do my best to return the favor. I just finished putting dinner on the stove. No problem for me; I'm the better cook by far. But my better half stayed around, offered to peel potatoes and read me the editorial page out of the paper.

I play in a brass band; she plays flute so there's no place for her, right? Wrong--she's the band manager. She also rides herd on a flute choir--nothing I can do, right? Wrong--I arrange charts for the group and this Friday, I'm playing tuba with them.

There are some things work-related where she doesn't have a clue about what I'm doing. But she'll look after things so I can burn the midnight oil. I feel valuable and I hope she feels the same way.

When I cut firewood; she helps me load it and split it and makes sure it finds its way into the house when needed. When we were cleaning up a logged over area, she was right there, helping me burn slash. Miserable, dirty hard work (I lost 30 lbs. that winter).

We've only been together for 22 years, so we can't claim to have figured it all out. But it's worked for us so far.

Life would be a lot less joyful and a much less interesting without her.

I think many women are confused with a man's apparent lack of abilty to pick up on "hints".
Most guys I know, myself included, are very direct individuals to some degree. They respond best to situations by looking straight at them and like to deal in direct statements and questions.
That being said:
As a married man, I've learned to interpret a number of "hints" from my wife with around a 85 percent success rate. The remaining 15 percent is determined by the Q&A game we play. My wife is a enduringly sweet southern lady with no malice of any kind, but I have spent hours trying to guess at things that could have been very simply stated.
My mother once explained this me like this: There is information I should tell my husband and then there's information he should figure out on his own (with or without a predetermined amount of "hints"). An incorrect guess on the latter can land many men in worse trouble than saying nothing at all.
Its not that most men are inattentive or insensitive. I like to believe its because many girls think about 6-10 steps beyond their male counterparts.

bloke wrote:Just "be like a guy". Get ready to go out the door, and ask him if he wants to come along...

I have found on a personal level that that works very well. However, the other end of it...is that women don't like to be treated the same as the family dog, i.e., as if they were just bouncing off the walls waiting for him to invite them somewhere. We like to have something resembling a plan. (not intended to inflame, just making an observation.)

MA

Doc wrote:Interesting.

I would agree, MA, although there are exceptions to the rule. My soon-to-be-ex would ask daily what the kids and I wanted for supper. In an attempt to be agreeable, I always said, "I don't care, whatever you want." I would get my *** chewed for being indecisive and forcing her to make all the decisions. If I made a suggestion it was either, "I don't feel like cooking that" or "I don't want to go there" or "I don't feel like cooking". Sorry, but if I bust my butt 7 days a week, and my spouse stays at home, I don't think it's too much to expect for me not to have to worry about supper. When I get home from work, it's time to eat, not time to ask questions about it. She neither took care of things on the homefront nor did she take a job in the workplace. If I tried to agree, or tacitly agree, I was wrong. If I tried to make a decision (heirarchy), I was wrong. How does that fit into your findings?

Here's a question:
If your spouse stayed home everyday while you worked, what duties would you expect him/her to perform?

Hmm... sounds like a new topic.

Doc (who knows men are ALWAYS wrong anyway )

Hmmm. Having been on the other end of similar discussions....she is trying to reach consensus, and you are trying to be agreeable. It might (or might not) have worked if you had sat down and had a discussion that went along the lines of "let's make a list of stuff that we like for dinner. I"m really tired at the end of the day and would rather you made the decision what to cook...anything off this list would be fine." Then you'd have a "consensus list" and also, hopefully, the final decision off your back. And I think she was STILL trying to reach consensus (or maybe she was just always irritable, who knows?) by responding to your suggestions with an "I don't want to" blah blah. I dont' know, I wasn't there. It is very likely that she too was very unhappy and that it just spilled over the edges into nothing being workable.

If my spouse were at home while I worked, it would depend on how many kids and how old they were, what I thought should be done. If my spouse was taking care of a couple energetic pre-schoolers, and maybe was depressed also, I think I would expect a lot less than if there were two school-aged kids and she was happy.

Sorry if I pushed your buttons, I know things are a little raw there now.

MA

Doc wrote: We operate on facts. If you want diamonds, say so. If you need a new rod&reel, say so. If I knew you wanted that new handgun or deer rifle, I would have bought it.

I have no problem with that. I have noticed, however, that there is a range of abilities for being inventive with gifts. Either ya got it or ya don't, and that is something your partner needs to accept that at least you TRY.

Doc wrote:
If there's no supper, give her a grocery allowance.

Having some trouble with this one...I assume you're kidding, but a lot of guys who are the breadwinners treat their wives as if they were children and then can't fathom why they don't act like mature women. Food for thought. Of course some guys don't WANT a mature woman for a partner, and choose appropriately. I"m astonished at the number of engineers who have totally un-mechanically minded wives, and who hold opinions of "all" women based on the one they married. Like, just because you chose one who can't take a toaster apart, doesn't mean ALL of them are like that. [/quote]

Doc wrote:
If she says OUT LOUD that she needs or wants these (and other) things, we can handle it. See, MA, we understand things that are blatantly obvious, but the rest is just beyond our grasp.

Absolutely no argument here. If she wants you to read her mind, she is totally and completely off base and needs to grow up.

Doc wrote: Doc (not a chauvanist at all, really MA, really!)

I'll reserve judgment for now, ok?
MA

MaryAnn wrote:

bloke wrote:Just "be like a guy". Get ready to go out the door, and ask him if he wants to come along... 8)

I have found on a personal level that that works very well. However, the other end of it...is that women don't like to be treated the same as the family dog, i.e., as if they were just bouncing off the walls waiting for him to invite them somewhere. We like to have something resembling a plan. (not intended to inflame, just making an observation.)

And most iof the time we'd be happy to follow your plan, if you just tell us what it is.

This thread lightly touched on th fact the a man is always wrong. You brushed it off, but it's more true than not. Women as question and, no matter the response, we're wrong.

"How does this look?" You say "bad", and your mean, hatefull, inconsiderate..., you say "good", and you lying, mean hatefull, inconsiderate,...

"What do you want for dinner?" "What ever you want/I don't care" and you not usefull, inconsiderate, difficult... "I'd like <blah>" and you get no I don't want that, not tonight, blah, blah blah...


-Thomas "damned if is does, damned if he doesn't"

ThomasDodd wrote: "What do you want for dinner?" "What ever you want/I don't care" and you not usefull, inconsiderate, difficult... "I'd like <blah>" and you get no I don't want that, not tonight, blah, blah blah...


-Thomas "damned if is does, damned if he doesn't"

I understand the wife completely. It's exactly like that with my own wife. I ask her what she wants for dinner, and if she doesn't say "you decide" she usually either suggests something impractical like a dish which needs hard to find ingredients or takes so much time we'd end up eating it roud midnight, or something from a rather short list of meals she knows how to cook herself.
Most of the time I just decide, or ask several days in advance.

I promise, I'm NOT bashing Sean here at all. It is communication merely on our part. Here is an example of what happened yesterday:

We went out for a valentines day lunch and got home around 230pm. The boy is at daycare. Spoken word is after : and implied meaning is in ()

Sean: Do you want to get Sampson, now? (we just had beer and I want to relax at home)
Me: No, I wasn't in any hurry to leave, (I want you to go with me to get Sampson in 30minutes)

2 hours pass

Me: Hey, lets go get the boy. (I want to see Sammy)
Sean: Can I practice for an hour first (Do I have to go?)
Me: No (Yes, you have to go)
Sean: Okay, will you go get him by yourself? (please, can I stay here?)
Me: No, I want you to go get him with me (silly, silly man!)
Sean: But I really need to practice. (um, i don't wanna go!)
Me: I wish you would have told me this when we got home; no, I have to drive in traffic (You are going to make me go get him bymyself?)
Sean: Don't lay the guilt on me, please? (I'm sorry)
Me: Its okay, you can put in your hour; I'll go get Sammy and go grocery shopping (I am going to go SHOPPING and there is nothing you can do about it!)

Not a big deal; I'm not upset in the least, but I just wish he would tell me what he want's/doesn't want to do right away; so I can plan my life accordingly.

MellowSmokeMan wrote:The best wisdom on relationships comes from the letter of our One Father alone.

1 Peter 3
Submission to Husbands
(blah, blah, blah text omitted).

I'd hate to burst your bubble, but that ain't working for me or anyone else I know.

DOC: Maybe women ought to understand that men aren't into the whole mystery of love thing. We don't care. We don't have time to, nor would we, care about every little soap-opera-like nuance of life.

Is it just me, or is this statement VERY telling?

Translation: there is a reason why some divorce others; they don't care to "make it work"

MomOfSampson wrote:

MellowSmokeMan wrote:The best wisdom on relationships comes from the letter of our One Father alone.

1 Peter 3
Submission to Husbands
(blah, blah, blah text omitted).

I'd hate to burst your bubble, but that ain't working for me or anyone else I know.

Got one for you, right here!

The problem is not with what these verses say, but with what people read into them, and ignore in them (heck, even YOU chopped out the equally important "husbands, love your wives just as Christ also loved the Church and died for her"). They do NOT say that the man is to be the lord and master, and the (less important) woman is to silently obey. They say, in effect, that it takes a head and a heart to be complete. We men are -- AS A RULE -- more thinker and less feeler than is good for us. Women, also as a rule, are more feeler and less thinker than is good for them. Either is incomplete by himself or herself. Remember, it wasn't good for Adam to be alone -- he needed Eve!! So it isn't that the man is capable and the woman is not, but that men and women have complementing strengths and weaknesses (again -- as a rule). So the man can be seen as the "head", and in many very good marriages -- mine being one of them -- the wife submits to the man's thinking where reason, unfettered by emotion, is required, as in "should we buy the new car or the used car". But honestly, there are more decisions -- hundreds each day, like "should I stop playing with junior and go fix supper, or spend a little more time reading and we'll just have hotdogs tonight", where a woman's heart will make the right decision a hundred times while the man is still analyzing his options for the first one.

Mind you, this is the sort of thing -- like "what will be expected of the wife if she stays home with the children" -- that should be established in advance. It would be assinine to get married (at least in today's world it would!) and THEN explain to your wife that she needs to submit, and she's expected to complete chore list X each day while she's staying home to care for the children.

And for those of you (and I KNOW there are some -- perhaps several) who say "our marriage is great, and we don't do it Joe's way at ALL", I merely say God BLESS you for finding a way to make your marriage work. My wife and I like the Biblical model, but I sure don't claim it's the only model that will work.

I'll add one other word of wisdom that ANYONE needs to make their marriage work: WHATEVER happens, make sure it's you and your spouse against the problem, not the problem between you and your spouse. Find a way to get on the same side, and fight together -- even if it means acknowledging up front that there's some detail you disagree on, that will have to be settled later. When you've spent time fighting the dragon together, you'll be able to work out a plan to spend the treasure!
________________________________
Joe Baker, whose marriage works.

MomOfSampson Said:

Sean: Do you want to get Sampson, now? (we just had beer and I want to relax at home)
Me: No, I wasn't in any hurry to leave, (I want you to go with me to get Sampson in 30minutes)

and:

I'm not upset in the least, but I just wish he would tell me what he want's/doesn't want to do right away; so I can plan my life accordingly.

and I'm sure he feels the same

Wow Joe. I have never heard it put so succinctly and acurately. I do agree that it can be taken in the wrong way by a lot of people. My former pastor was one of those and he preached weekly on how women should submit (read: be subservient) to their husbands, and men in general, in everything regardless of circumstance. It nearly drove my parents apart and it took until the death of my older sister, when the pastor told my mother that she could not put her signature on the organ donation form, for my dad to realize what was going on. Our next pastor helped to heal the damage and preached a series of sermons on this very subject and the blessings, and problems, therein.
Each couple needs to thoroughly discuss what submission means to them and come to an agreement. They also need to figure out what each one expects from the other. Nobody likes suprises and they can, and do, ruin many a marriage as has been noted by many posters so far.

Joe Baker wrote:

MomOfSampson wrote:

MellowSmokeMan wrote:The best wisdom on relationships comes from the letter of our One Father alone.


The problem is not with what these verses say, but with what people read into them, and ignore in them (heck, even YOU chopped out the equally important "husbands, love your wives just as Christ also loved the Church and died for her"). They do NOT say that the man is to be the lord and master, and the (less important) woman is to silently obey. They say, in effect, that it takes a head and a heart to be complete. We men are -- AS A RULE -- more thinker and less feeler than is good for us. Women, also as a rule, are more feeler and less thinker than is good for them. Either is incomplete by himself or herself. Remember, it wasn't good for Adam to be alone -- he needed Eve!! So it isn't that the man is capable and the woman is not, but that men and women have complementing strengths and weaknesses (again -- as a rule). So the man can be seen as the "head", and in many very good marriages -- mine being one of them -- the wife submits to the man's thinking where reason, unfettered by emotion, is required, as in "should we buy the new car or the used car". But honestly, there are more decisions -- hundreds each day, like "should I stop playing with junior and go fix supper, or spend a little more time reading and we'll just have hotdogs tonight", where a woman's heart will make the right decision a hundred times while the man is still analyzing his options for the first one.

________________________________
Joe Baker, whose marriage works.

I consider this to be both an accurate and wise interpretation of the scripture. It is certainly worth considering in order to develop the relationship within a marriage. I truly do not believe the scripture ever intended for the wife to blindly do whatever her husband said. That is complete folly.

Re: Scripture:

1 Timothy 2:9 et seq:

In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.