Who's with me?

[Toobist]

Dear fellow TubeNetters,

I'm finding the tone of a vast quantity of the posts on this board has degenerated to that of personal insult, irresponsible misinformation (or at least half-baked notions and opinions that aren't sited as exactly that - opinion) and general schoolyard bullying. That is to say, there still are a few posters who when I see their monikers, I'll click on the post straight away and usually enjoy what I read. What I don't enjoy, nor value, are the posts those valuable members of the forum waste on defending themselves or others against the sort of unpleasantness to which we've developed a sort of apathy that keeps us from mentioning it.

I've just reached my breaking point... again. I've gotten on my soap box before, but this time I'd like to start a discussion and dedicate this thread to talk about perhaps reforming our practices on the board. I'd like to invite those of you who think similarly to express yourself and, of course, if you feel that the status quo just peachy, by all means, flame away.

For one, I think if things are going to change, those of us who feel that this ought to be a useful resource and discussion forum should pipe up when posts that are hurtful to our cause here on TubeNet. For instance, we should simply chime in with something like: "That's counter productive and should be in a PM," or "Hey. That was a personal insult and that's not what we do here on TubeNet - a resource and discussion forum where we try and be helpful to eachother and a world-wide community."

Those are just some suggestions. Please add more!

Here is the post I just wrote in response to a bit of a zinger that I found went against what I feel is appropriate if we're to maintain bboard members that make this forum worth reading:
Wow.

I'm always amazed at how publicly some of us can insult others on this forum. Can't we just bite our tongues sometimes? Wait... If we started doing that every time we want to be judgmental, overuse this emoticon: (you know who you are) and down-play other people's opinions, personally insult, and generally be unpleasant and anti-community (did I coin that?), we wouldn't have more than half of the posts we do daily! So please! Keep it up! Otherwise all I'd have to read are the seldom-posted USEFUL, informative and community friendly posts.

Please carry on the self-deception that hurtful things and poorly researched 'opinions' are okay to post here; I'm looking for further reason to diminish my confidence in this board.

My point?

When respectable people like Dr. Young and others of his ilk stop posting on this list, the board's usefulness and reliability is lessened greatly. I may agree with the above assertions, but I wouldn't dream of selfishly and short-sightedly commenting publicly on it. How many here have spoken to a respected musician who USED to frequent this board and have stopped due to the general tone having degenerated? At the top of my head I can think of half a dozen of my heroes and colleagues who have scratched this off their list of resources they use and, perhaps more importantly, suggest to their students.

I'm going to start a fresh thread on this subject as the above isn't even a strong example of what I'm talking about... just the last straw before I finally piped up.

Sincerely and hopefully,
Al

[Michael Bush]

I certainly agree. However, the last time we talked about this sort of thing a couple of weeks ago, it was made perfectly clear that the powers that be like it this way, or at least they like it better than doing anything about it.

[bort]

It'd be nice if people were more nice. But you can't force people to be nice. You can be nice yourself, and you can try to promote niceness, but you can't make other people be nice. Some people are just jerks.

[bort]

And as for pro's not posting anymore, that's certainly a shame. But on the flipside, there are also people who used to post a lot and don't anymore, and I can't say that I've thought that to be a bad thing in every case.

But more seriously, I agree that we should all be a little nicer and help each other out. But in the end, we have to do the best with what we've got, and use what we have to our best advantage. I still think this place is a tremendous resource, regardless of who is/isn't here right now.

[NCSUSousa]

I agree with 'Toobist' that this isn't the place for personal insults or half-baked opinions presented as truth.
As an internet message board, part of the challenge has been (and may always be) sifting through the variety of posts here to find the useful bits.
I will continue to post on subjects where I find that I either want to know more or think that I have something to offer by posting my opinion/response. I fully understand that not everyone here will agree that I have achieved my goal.
I would hope that other, more learned musicians (and tuba repairmen) will also contribute in this way. It's the breadth of contributions that makes a forum valuable to those who understand how to use it.
Whether it is an inaccurate post or a disagreement on opinion, I would hope that those who know more than I do can either post meaningful rebuttals to inaccurate opinions or send meaningful PMs to correct those of us who do not know the error of their ways so that we can all LEARN from each other.
I very much appreciate it when the quality of my posts can be improved through civil discussion whether it happens in a PM or on the forum for all to read.

[arminhachmer]

Have you just recently discovered the dumbing of America ?
It takes many forms. Intelligence, compassion and grace are surviving by a thread in some instances.

[tbn.al]

Two Ron White quotes come to mind here,

"You can't fix stupid"

and

"I had the right to remain silent but I didn't have the ability"

guilty as charged I guess

[phaymore]

If any of you follow other types of message boards, you would probably agree that this not just a TubeNet problem. In fact, TubeNet is quite tame compared to most sites. I like to read college football BBS and the majority of post start out innocent enough but quickly turn into personal attacks. Most then get moved to the "smack board." I halfway expect that on a sports message board, but it is sad to see it on that site that caters to what I thought were mature adults and professionals.

[Toobist]

...speaking of which>

I've completely HAD IT

with people posting here complaining about the tone of other people's posts, and others' posts not being "professional" enough.

That's the tack you've chosen? An unimaginative joke when a colleague expresses frustration in the declining validity of what ought to be a valuable resource in your field?
Oh well. At least you're not a sponsor....

[tbn.al]

Oh well. At least you're not a sponsor....

huh? facetiousness right?

[tofu]

The loss of pros posting on here over the years is a shame. They were/are a very valuable resource and add a lot of useful insight. I personally know my playing has benefited from some of their posts. For example Dr. Askew did me a very nice favor off board back in December after reading one of my posts on here. Thanks again Dennis!

It seemed a lot of pros stopped posting several years ago when we seemed to have a huge influx of HS students. Many were gracious and here to learn. Unfortunately, they were largely overshadowed by some nasty vocal louts who seemed to have no respect or even knowledge in some cases of whom they were to talking to. I remember one thread a well known respected pro whose user name was his real name was involved in and this kid who was just loud and uncouth. Basically called the pro an idiot who didn't know anything. I could see why a pro would depart after being insulted by the 9th chair sousaphonist in the Backwater HS Junior Varsity marching band who specialized in blast and splat and thought bathroom noises made for good tuba tone. Of course it's not just kids who are less than civil. They may be taking their cues from some of the adults who seem to have a perpetual case of Road (or should it be tuba) Rage.

I also find unseemly the attacks we have seen by some pros/parts seller on other pros who also sell/make parts. It's a free market and if somebody thinks their design is worth a certain price then the market will determine if it stands up. Complaining on here that their stuff is overpriced compared to your stuff (whether it's true or not) is not cool.

[gwwilk]

[curmudgeonly opinion}Beginning a call for civil discourse with a bludgeoning hardly seems effective, except as it now becomes a new example that meets with your disapprobation. The need for the gentle application of a mildly disciplinary tongue is best met when it appears, not when stockpiled and then delivered in a thread such as this. While the intent of this thread is good, I think that in its application it misses the mark widely and serves as an example of what not to do.[/curmudgeonly opinion]

[Toobist]

curmudgeonly opinion}Beginning a call for civil discourse with a bludgeoning hardly seems effective, except as it now becomes a new example that meets with your disapprobation. The need for the gentle application of a mildly disciplinary tongue is best met when it appears, not when stockpiled and then delivered in a thread such as this. While the intent of this thread is good, I think that in its application it misses the mark widely and serves as an example of what not to do.[/curmudgeonly opinion]

Excellent! You see? Was it so hard? Call us out on it.

You're absolutely right. I took a post personally and, as noted by a post or two up the page, I may have taken some of the wind out of my own sales for my argument. But I'm not looking to win any argument. I'd just like more watch dogs like the one above. It's all our responsibilities to keep this a viable resource.

I'm interested in knowing the history of the board's decline but I'm far more interested in more of us holding one another accountable for the types of posts that make this board less than desirable to some of those who've left.

I went to bat for TubeNet when I got an eye-roll from a long-time mentor of mine a couple months ago when I brought it up. I said that there is still good information to be had on here. Maybe if we make it less appealing to post flames and the like by calling people out on it (myself included!) we might attract more of the guru types who used to make up a larger portion of the membership than they do now.

Thoughts? Discussion? Civil conversation?

[k001k47]

I am a student.

[Toobist]

I am a student.

Awesome! With whom are you studying? What have you found helpful here on the bboard? I'm sure the majority of TubeNetters are students. I didn't discover the forum until after school, but if I had, I'd have had much more insight when I could've used it.

[Donn]

In fact, TubeNet is quite tame compared to most sites. I like to read college football BBS and the majority of post start out innocent enough but quickly turn into personal attacks. Most then get moved to the "smack board." I halfway expect that on a sports message board, but it is sad to see it on that site that caters to what I thought were mature adults and professionals.

You halfway expect that on a sports BBS, because people go there for that. Are people coming here for that, too? I think so, unfortunately.

You'd think Tubenet would cater to those who are interested in the tuba, and you'd think on the whole tuba players would not be greatly different than other musicians. But from my impression of BBS setups around other musical instruments, I'd be surprised if there are any others that are quite as ripe as Tubenet.

Toobist's notion that we could each address it, by speaking up on the BS and hopefully puncturing the illusion that a few mean spirited individuals speak for everyone, might work. Or not. The problems I see with it are 1) the habitual offenders enjoy this kind of thing and are skilled at it, so you have to work a lot harder to stick with your message than many of us are ready to, and 2) after years of this climate, you can't assume that the seats are filled with people who don't like it. I guess the alternative is a major, long term, focused effort by real moderators. I guess you can't expect a lot there, but to be fair, haven't things have been improving a little in places, in recent years? Maybe it just takes time.

[k001k47]

I am a student.

Awesome! With whom are you studying? What have you found helpful here on the bboard? I'm sure the majority of TubeNetters are students. I didn't discover the forum until after school, but if I had, I'd have had much more insight when I could've used it.

I've learned to take things read on the internet with a grain of salt. Also, I don't feel comfortable disclosing where I study. Dont nkow why

[Michael Bush]

In fact, TubeNet is quite tame compared to most sites. I like to read college football BBS and the majority of post start out innocent enough but quickly turn into personal attacks. Most then get moved to the "smack board." I halfway expect that on a sports message board, but it is sad to see it on that site that caters to what I thought were mature adults and professionals.

You halfway expect that on a sports BBS, because people go there for that. Are people coming here for that, too? I think so, unfortunately.

I gladly pay about $100 a year to be part of a premium sports board where the dialogue is invariably intelligent and civil. Partly that's because those values are the reason the posters are there instead of somewhere else, partly it's because of the pay wall, and partly it's because those values are enforced by the mods. Those who don't post in accord with those values don't last long. They are banned and their money is refunded. That model works, and I would purely love to have a tuba board like it.

[Bob Kolada]

I think part of the problem started with the professional labels. That got worse when band directors, instrument salesmen, and grad students started getting that label, then worse again when all those guys started asking for copies of music...


Bob"quarter pro (at best!), but apparently not one of the above categories"Kolada

[swillafew]

I would like to see people start new threads when they take the thread in an unrelated direction. When this doesn't happen, it would helpful to "clean" the thread of the unrelated responses to the OP. I post in an automotive forum where things get scrapped as they appear (don't ask me how I know)

PM is the way to take somebody to the woodshed, if you want help with that.