Choral directors

[Rick F]

After seeing a video linked here recently of a church's Easter Service, I noticed that their choral director used a similar pattern conducting as does our choral director. What ever beat is to his right — beat 3 in a 3/4 pattern, or beat 4 in a 4/4 pattern — our director gets pretty loopy. For instance In 4/4 for beat 4, he goes almost straight up then makes a big loop out to the right then back in front of himself in prep for beat 1. It can be confusing to new comers in our orchestra or band. In a piece that has several meter changes the last beat can be confused with beat one since he goes so high... especially from either side of the director.

After seeing that video, it made me wonder if maybe choral directing is taught differently?

[tbn.al]

It's been my experience that choral directors are taught only to direct choirs. The accompanist are simply on their own. Since I can't depend on them for direction I almost never look their way. Therefore I haven't a clue as to the answer to your post and only posted this to have the opportunity to take a shot at them.

[Dan Schultz]

I've played in groups that had ex choir directors as conductors. No down beat. Just 'singing' with their hands. Very difficult for me to follow.

[tbn.al]

- Don't EVER look down at the bass trombonist patting his foot !!!!!

Joe, as a bass trombonist, I disagree. We don't pat. We tap.

[gwwilk]

Wouldn't a 'Conducting Class' cover all popular aspects of the craft? I've never had a trained conductor, choral or otherwise, who was difficult to follow. Only those without training, or who have forgotten their training or think they have a superior technique, flail away hoping they can somehow attach themselves to what the group is doing. Rehearsals should help the group and conductor refine their expectations of each other while they work out the kinks. Conductors who don't recognize the kinks are very difficult to follow and never achieve the group's potential.

Bear in mind that what I know doesn't always measure up to what I think I know...

[iiipopes]

No, instrumental conductors and choral conductors do have different classes, depending on the university.

I was lucky: the choral directors I had in school and college sometimes subbed for the band director and vice versa if either had to be out. So instead of the wavy hands, they used batons for choral conducting, making it much easier to follow.

My band director was the best. Navy trained. He was a clarinet player, and from his playing experience abhorred conductors that looped and weaved, as sitting in the traditional place for clarinets to the side he couldn't make sense of the conducting. He told us so, and explained why he conducted as he did. So his style was the most precise, observable, intelligible style of conducting I have ever had the privilege of playing under. He used the right hand for time, keeping his left to his body until he wanted to give an expressive indication or point an entrance, then he returned his hand. He did not get into the bad habit of using both hands for time, as some instrumental directors, and a lot of choral conductors fall into. And the beat was the beat. No slop of the hand curving off the bottom coming off "1." Straight down to a point. If you weren't anticipating properly so you had sound coming out of your horn the precise instant he hit the beat, so that the entire band articulated together, watch out!

Also, and spread this to every conductor you play under: the bass drum was in the middle back. The tubas and other low voices spread to one side from the bass drum, with the contra clarinets to the outside of the tubas and the percussion spread to the other side with the tympani to the outside of the percussion. There was never a question as to the unity and solidarity of the foundation of the band.

[TMurphy]

No, instrumental conductors and choral conductors do have different classes, depending on the university.

This was certainly the case at my school. The choral people all did the wavy hand stuff. The instrumentalists were more straight forward.

[Tom Mason]

I have lived on both sides of the fence, and the grass is greener on the other side........

Instrumental and choral conductors have different goals in leading their ensembles, even though you don't think they do. This has something to do with how we as conductors attain our goal of togetherness.

Instrumentalist are usually taught to count in tempo and learn to read rhythm. Our conductors at the elementary and secondary levels concentrate on keeping a temp and making the performer play with correct rhythm. In class, we teach rhythmic reading and practice rhythmic combinations almost to the level of performing by rote.

Vocal music education seems to focus on having the ensemble move rhythmically by watching the conductor place the consonant, syllable or word at the precise place while following an accompanist, or together as a group. This sounds like the same concept, but as a vocal conductor, you are also signaling how you want the sound to be formed, such as the shape of the mouth or the length of the phrase.

Most instrumentalist are looking for acknowledgement of when to perform their part from the conductor, where most vocalist are seeking more instruction as to how to produce the sound and where to place it.

In other words, most vocalist don't count. Most instrumentalist plug in and play a particular sound.

Also, most amateur vocalist don't use counting a rhythm as a means to learn the music. Most instrumentalist have had some training in rhythmic understanding.

Flame away........I'm a big boy who has performed professionally in both areas.

[Uncle Buck]

Anecdotal contribution:

During my undergraduate years I performed extensively under the direction of two choral conductors: Ronald Staheli (still a choral conductor at that university) and Mack Wilberg (who was then a choral conductor at that university and who is currently the conductor of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir).

Those two were as precise and professional in their instrumental conducting as any conductor I've ever worked with. Both knew how to combine an instrumental ensemble with a large choir with as little rehearsal as possible and simply get-it-done. And well. I never noticed either of them engaging in the practices discussed in this thread.

I did notice that they employed very different conducting styles when conducting small choral groups vs. big choral groups vs. combined choral-instrumental groups. Pros know there is a difference and adjust what they do accordingly.

[Tom Mason]

I agree that there are professional conductors that handle both styles of conducting. I have seen too many that can not.
Most likely, those who practice both can handle both.

[Heavy_Metal]

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[Radar]

There definitely is a difference in the way choirs and bands are conducted. I won't repeat what the differences are because it's already been covered quite well a couple of post ago. As someone who does both instrumental and choral music, on a weekly basis under very proficient conductors I can tell you that you have to view the conducting styles differently. As bloke said I mainly look at the conductors for Entrances, cut offs, tempo changes, the stuff in between I use my ears for.