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MaryAnn wrote:... food isn't that much fun for me anyway... Neither is beer.

So is that it? food and beer are just one of the more fun things in life? Or is it more body type?

MA, I think there are a lot of reasons some of us have allowed ourselves to become so obese. I'm finally on the way down now after quite a few years of going up (topped out at 300 two years ago, weight 253 last Friday). There is just no question that some people can eat durn near anything without gaining weight, and others gain weight on water and celery. These are the exceptions. With acknowledgement to those, and empathy for the majority of overweight folks, the fact is that a lot of us eat too much and exercise too little.

In my case, I settled into a community where most of my neighbors were farmers or construction workers. We'd all get together after work or on the weekends, and EAT. Okay for them, because they'd burn off as much as they brought in; but I sat behind my desk all day every day, getting fatter and fatter. The food itself brought me plenty of pleasure, but looking back I think the food was just a part of the social events. We moved away from there a couple of years ago, and I found myself with the same habit of overeating, for no reason now EXCEPT habit. At that point it was just a matter of resolve, deciding that I wanted to lose weight MORE than I wanted to eat Mexican food three nights a week, and a Snickers bar every day at lunch, and Little Debbie Swiss Rolls every night before bed, and CiCi's all-you-can-eat pizza buffet, and.... To make matters worse, beyond a certain weight it is just painful to exercise; when I'd go for a walk the pain in my feet, ankles and knees was horrible. Forget anything more strenuous than that.

It took me 20 months to lose the first 20 pounds using a bunch of fad diets; then January 4 this year I found "the solution". I've lost 25 pounds in those 4 months, and it's not been that hard (if you don't have any interest in how I did it, you should skip the rest of this post). A lady at my office has lost somewhere around 100 lbs in the last couple of years. I watched her come into the break room a couple of times per day and break open either a yogurt or a package of Peanut M&Ms (the M&Ms were my first clue that this is something I might be able to do). I complimented her on her accomplishment, and asked her how she was doing it. Her answer: the "glycemic index". This is a measurement doctors have used for years in order to suggest a suitable diet for people to control diabetes. The idea is at once simple and profound: you eat slow-digesting foods, so your blood sugar stays more or less constant, so you never get the munchies. These foods tend to also require you to burn more calories digesting than other foods, so you can actually take in more calories and still lose weight. And since it includes significant quantities of food from all four food groups, you get all the other health benefits of good eating. A typical day's eating for me:

Breakfast:
* two slices whole-wheat toast, buttered with low-fat or non-fat margarine
* fruit (just about anything but bananas or melons)
* fat-free yogurt or cottage cheese (if you haven't had fruit-flavored fat-free yogurts sweetened with Splenda, you haven't tried yogurt. Kroger sells a "cherry cheesecake" flavor. Mmmmmmm GOOD stuff!!)

Morning Snack:
* yogurt or fruit

Lunch:
* lean meat sandwich with lots of meat, lots of tomatos, fat-free cheese, and fat-free mayo, on whole wheat.
* A WHOLE CAN of green peas, or similar amount of other veggie -- NO POTATOS, CORN OR RICE!!
* yogurt, cottage cheese, or glass of skim milk

Afternoon Snack:
* Sun Tues Thurs -- Yogurt or Fruit
* Mon Wed Fri Sat -- Peanut M&Ms (not just any candy! The peanuts significantly slow down digestion, making these work with the diet. Other candies... I don't know)

Supper:
* Hamburger (90% lean beef) or broiled, lean pork chop or chicken breast
* Whole wheat bun or roll (limited pasta or WHOLE GRAIN rice)
* Equivalent of 1 can of veggies (no spuds or corn)
* Jello fat-free pudding for dessert
(as a Texan, when the urge for TexMex hits I fix taco meat w/ 90% lean beef, use whole wheat tortillas, fat-free cheddar, and fat-free sour cream, and eat 2 tacos. NOT BAD!)

Bedtime Snack:
* Fruit, yogurt, or more pudding


I also cheat an average of two meals per week (if I REALLY cheat BADLY, then only one ). I seldom feel deprived. BTW, the food sounds expensive, and the meats ARE expensive per pound; but since you only eat a quarter pound of meat instead of a half-pound, and you don't throw away any substantial amount of weight as grease, I haven't noticed it being much more expensive. Stick with the store brand yogurts (I pay $0.39 each at Kroger) and stock up when things are on sale, and it's not really a problem.

If anyone is interested in knowing more about this, contact me. I'm not selling anything, but I've found a solution to a problem that has dogged me for years, and I'd love to share it with anyone who thinks they might benefit from it.
__________________________
Joe Baker, who knows some people are probably thinking of the phrase "the zeal of the converted", and they're right!

just two comments:
1. Please stop eating margerine, and all other sources of trans-fatty acids. They are very, very VERY bad for you, much worse than butter. Use extra-virgin unadulterated olive oil (it's green, expensive, delicious, and you can get it at your health food store) or virgin coconut oil on your bread. Or no "butter" at all.

2. Buy organic meats; the "regular" ones are chock-full of estrogenic hormones, that will give you an enlarged prostate and other problems. Also, processed meats (lunch meats) are extremely high in salt, which is also just horrible for you, and will make you retain water (= weight.)

Sorry, three things:
don't eat splenda. It is a chemical. Instead get some stevia, which is just a plant.

I already eat a low-glycemic-index diet; I cannot eat sugar because it totally wacks me out. Same with alcohol. My intestinal system goes nuts with a lot of animal fat, so eliminating those two general categories I'm basically a low-glycemic vegetarian.

MA, who thinks your diet in general sounds great.

PS: if you know a woman who is exceedingly moody for no apparent reason, see if you can talk her into a two-week sugar-free and alcohol-free trial period. No artificial sweeteners either. Cold turkey, two weeks. The results may be eye-opening.

I've dropped all trans-fatty acids. [edit]The margarine I eat is actually ZERO fat, but before I found it I was eating a low-fat margarine made with no trans-fat. In fact, the only bad cholesterol I take in at all any more is from meats, and that's fairly limited. I'll sometimes saute a chicken breast with a teaspoon of olive oil, but other than that I don't eat any oils at all.

I have to part company with you on the "organically grown" meats, though. I have no doubt they'd be a little better for me, but I'm not convinced that the difference is as great as some imply; and frankly it is just SO much more expensive that I don't think I could provide the other things my family needs if I had to pay for it. Besides, modern techniques -- even if the result is lacking in some ways -- have made it possible to feed a lot more people in this world. I think food is one of the few things in this world where quantity is every bit as important as quality, so I'm thankful for those techniques. But I harbor no resentment for those who can afford to eat the organically grown stuff.
_________________________
Joe Baker, who is paying a lot more attention to these things now-a-days.

Allow me to preface this by saying that I don't think I've ever seen a fat vegetarian or vegan (vegetarians allow eggs and dairy into the diet; vegans don't).

Part of the problem, I think, is the lack of variety in the typical American diet. Meat with a starchy side and perhaps a cooked vegetable. Often with gravy or other sauce. Perhaps we eat too much simply because there's no variety in taste.

I like to listen to Bach, but I'd hate to restrict my listening to Bach exclusively.

My wife and I eat a primarily vegetarian diet because it offers a wide variety of tastes and flavors, and is healthy. Yesterday's menu would be typical of most of our days:

1. Breakfast: oatmeal or cereal with fruit and yogurt, coffee.

2. Lunch: Leftovers from the previous night's sunchoke and sweet potato cassarole.

3. Dinner: Pasta with sauteed greens, peppers, dried tomatoes, mushrooms, olives and garlic, sprinkled with a good parmesan cheese. Dessert: pears in caramel sauce with a little blue cheese.

Wine or juice normally accompanies all meals. Between meal snacks are mostly nuts or fruit; I like Wah Guru Chew, myself.

I weigh 234 and am 6'4". I do not consider myself to be fat.

MaryAnn wrote:don't eat splenda. It is a chemical. Instead get some stevia, which is just a plant.

Mary Ann,

I don't like the bitter aftertaste of stevia, and I don't care for honey. Is there an alternative natural sweetener?

Splenda is chlorinated sugar. In other words, they take sugar, and add chlorine atoms to the sugar molecules, so it mimics the structure of insoluble fiber. I had notes as to exactly how it does that, but they are not with me right now, and I don't remember all the specifics. You use the Splenda, it tastes sweet, then your body desn't digest it, and it exits the body as waste.

Not trying to give an opinion ne way or the other on the use of Splenda, just clearing the air on exactly what it is (this information was provided to me during a course on foods and nutrition here at Rutgers, taught by a nutritionist. Probably the best non-music course I've taken to date).

Can a vegetarian get fat? Sure--lots of junk food and added fat.

http://www.ivillage.co.uk/dietandfitnes ... 91,00.html

But if you've got your own daughters on a high-fat diet, you could be doing them a disservice, even if they're not pudgy:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story ... 89,00.html

I weighed 275 in 1994. By 2000, I'd dropped to 200 (195 when I lived in Texas, and 202 when I moved to Virginia and started climbing hills, putting another inch on my cycling thighs). In 2000, I worked up to an Ironman triathlon, and since then got married and wanted to play the tuba more. I'm back up to 230.

During that time, I learned a few basic truths:

1. Obsessing about what the scales say is self-defeating. Pinch the skin around your middle. If you grab more than an inch, you have fat that's worth trying to remove. Obsessing about the scales every day is something you can do for a while, but then it starts to consume you, just like any obsession. The problem is that the scales tell you when you are heavy, not when you are unfit and unhealthy. Choose better measures of progress, such as the amount of flab and the number of miles you can go without getting tired.

2. I found that a balanced diet (including reasonable portions of fat, meat, vegetables, and fruit, and less than we usually consume of grains) works best, and provides the least hunger overall. This is consistent with staying away from high-glycemic foods. Five small meals a day worked well. BUT...

3. Eating well is more a function of being fit than a cause of it. My current diet is about two-thirds what it was when I lost all the weight, and I still avoid all fried foods and lots of bad stuff I used to eat. But I'm still back up to 230. The difference is the lack of long, aerobic exercise. (This is why I get so annoyed by food harpies of all types. It's not the food that made us fat, it's the desire for quick, easy calories that made us fat. That desire is fueled less by hunger than by the high we get from food. Exercise provides a better high, and the exercise high replaces the food high to a large extent. That's my response to Chuck: Vegetarians tend to be skinny, but vegetarians also tend to be naturally active, probably because they started out skinny and have stayed that way. Which came first, that activity or the eating? I submit that it's the activity, fueled by favorable genes, in the majority of cases.)

4. Diet requires discipline. It's more effective to spend that discipline on exercise, and then let the diet take care of itself. You do have to retrain how you eat, but it's relatively easy to do if you are exercising regularly and are growing in fitness, and if you feel good all the time because you are exercising.

5. Throw away the scales (yes, I said this before). Muscle is heavy compared to fat. If you exercise a lot, you might actually gain weight at times. Who cares? The point is to remove fat. Muscle is a fat-burning machine; more of it helps lose more fat. There are lots of unhealthy skinny people around, sitting around smugly thinking they are paragons of good health just because they are not fat. They often become food harpies, bless them.

6. Unplug the TV. (And, on the parenting issue, remove all TV's from childrens' rooms. Put the computers in a common area. The only activity allowed in bedrooms is reading or playing with toys. That will get your kids outside! And lots of kids stay inside because their parents won't exert the energy needed to keep up with them outside--or they aren't home to do so. That's much more worth exposing than super-sized fries, which is an effect not a cause.)

7. Some people will be heavy no matter what they do. My doctor thinks I'm terribly fat (he didn't know me from before). When I explained that 11 years ago I was much heavier, and 5 years ago I finished an Ironman triathlon, he changed his perception. He would have complained about my weight when I was 205, because I still had that that little roll of fat around my middle (it's bigger, now, of course), and I still fell outside norms for people my height. Why is this an important principle? Because it's one of the ways naturally skinny (and not necessarily healthy) people express their superiority over naturally fat people, by using such formulas as the Body Mass Index to classify people before knowing anything about their fitness. I was considered obese according to the BMI even when I was running marathons. How dumb is that? You military guys kinow what I'm talking about.

8. Drink lots of water (Joe, that's the one thing I would add to what you are doing). At least 8 glasses a day. That will help you balance out your water weight from one day to the next. It will also help with digestion, and will keeping you from dehydration, which will stop your exercise program faster than a broken leg.

9. The first step in an effective weight loss program is both the easiest and the hardest. It's the decision to Do Something. Having decided that, everything else is just technique. But no amount of technique will overcome the lack of decision. Just like all important decisions, this decision has to be reinforced every single day (and now you know why I've gained some back).

Rick "looking forward to being passed up by Joe" Denney

Steve Marcus wrote: I don't like the bitter aftertaste of stevia, and I don't care for honey. Is there an alternative natural sweetener?

Maple syrup.

Joe Baker wrote: I have to part company with you on the "organically grown" meats, though. I have no doubt they'd be a little better for me, but I'm not convinced that the difference is as great as some imply; and frankly it is just SO much more expensive that I don't think I could provide the other things my family needs if I had to pay for it. Besides, modern techniques -- even if the result is lacking in some ways -- have made it possible to feed a lot more people in this world. I think food is one of the few things in this world where quantity is every bit as important as quality, so I'm thankful for those techniques. But I harbor no resentment for those who can afford to eat the organically grown stuff

I can understand you on the expense point of view, but we diverge from there. The hormones are very detectable to me....if I eat even a small quantity of "regular" store-boughten meat, I lose a night's sleep due to hot flashes from the effects of the hormones. So I know they are there and the organic people are not lying. I seem to be aware of effects from things I ingest, that other people are not aware of until they develop a health problem.
And if you want to feed the world...so some research on the efficacy and cost of a vegetarian diet as opposed to what it costs, both financially and environmentally, to raise animals for slaughter. We could feed the world if we didn't have this meat thing.
MA

Stevia...has a bitter aftertaste? huh. I guess I don't have taste buds that respond to that. I don't eat it either, generally, because one sweet taste just makes me crave others.

Joe, do some research on not eating oils. You do need oils in your diet, and they don't make you fat. Refined carbs make you fat. There is evidence that avoiding mono and saturated fats (not beef fat, I mean like coconut oil) tends you towards cancer.

edit: if you want to do some reading here is an excellent informational site:
http://www.healthythyroid.com/Thyroid_H ... t_Loss.htm

MA, who eats almost entirely based on what doesn't cause a physical upset. I've found that if I put all the "trimmins" on a Garden Burger, it tastes enough like a good ole hamburger, to be downright satisfying.

I'm one of those skinny, can't gain weight, unhealthy types.
5'9" 145lbs. Most I've ever weighed was 170 right out of boot camp. Muscle mass. Quickly lost that, when I wasn't forced to exercize twice a day.

My diet is mostly beef, lot's of bread and pasta, occasionally rice. Few vegetables.
I always get strange looks due to the large quantities I consume.

Wasn't always like this though. Was 4'9" and 145 for a while, then I stopped gaining weight, and got taller.

My wife is the opposite. She was thin, not now. She cannot manage to drop the weight either. I'm going to show her this thread. She might try the suggestions. I'll catch hell, but if she find something that work I'll be better off. Short period in the dog house, in return for a happy wife later

Interestingly enough,

Pandas are bears that have teeth and digestive systems designed to eat meat, but they have survived for a long time by eating only bamboo. Low in protien and fats, high in carbohydrate (including fiber).

Although they are very territorial, they don't often have the energy to confront each other like other bears. They spend a large portion of their lives avoiding other pandas. They sleep most of the day in a state which seems similar to diabetic induced sleep. Also, they do not play tubas

-Tabor

Tabor wrote:Interestingly enough,

Pandas...do not play tubas

-Tabor

Now there is the problem!

My dad always says "Americans can market anything", and by god, he's right! It's almost sickening that in grocery stores the real food is called "organic" and given its own special section with a 50% markup, and processed garbage inhabits nearly the entire store.

From my perspective, any diet is completely moot if any or all of the foods are convenience foods from the grocery stores... hippie propaganda aside, I think we can all pretty much agree that chemicals to give cows larger breasts, grain the inability to ever spoil, and fish the ability to reproduce asexually AREN'T supposed to go into our bodies.

"Organic" food isn't more expensive by design, it's more expensive because people are willing to accept that processed convenient garbage is "normal" and 'organic'='special', which is simply not true. Are there any agricultural co-ops where you guys live? I get most of my foods from a farmers market that meets every 2nd weekend..I pay a LOT less than I do at the grocery store, my food tastes a lot better, my colon is a lot more functional, and the food is less than a few weeks old by the time I consume it(compare to 1-to-6-to-24 months old when bought from the local super-convenience-mart).

my $.02

happy eating!

funkcicle wrote:"Organic" food isn't more expensive by design, it's more expensive because people are willing to accept that processed convenient garbage is "normal" and 'organic'='special', which is simply not true. Are there any agricultural co-ops where you guys live? I get most of my foods from a farmers market that meets every 2nd weekend..I pay a LOT less than I do at the grocery store, my food tastes a lot better, my colon is a lot more functional, and the food is less than a few weeks old by the time I consume it(compare to 1-to-6-to-24 months old when bought from the local super-convenience-mart).

Another approach to this is to team up with one of the community-sponsored agriculture (CSA) programs near you. Usually, the way it works is for a weekly, monthly or seasonal fee, they furnish a box of produce grown locally. You get nice fresh produce and the small farmers get thier produce sold.

My wife and I go with a "hybrid" CSA group. During the growing season, the bulk of the produce comes locally, but during the off-season, we get not only hothouse produce, but stuff grown by CSA farmers in California.

You never know quite what you're going to get. More than once, I've gone scurrying to the web to find out how one cooks raab, jerusalem artichokes, burdock, and heaven knows what else. Staples like potatoes, onions, garlic, shallots and eggs are also part of the deal. It's all been good and fresh.

funkcicle wrote:"Organic" food isn't more expensive by design, it's more expensive because people are willing to accept that processed convenient garbage is "normal" and 'organic'='special', which is simply not true.

The issue is not that organic food are more expensive, but the processed food are cheaper.
The whokle reason for the processing is to reduce costs, by alowing cheaper distribution models and longer shelf life (so les waste).

Are there any agricultural co-ops where you guys live? I get most of my foods from a farmers market that meets every 2nd weekend..I pay a LOT less than I do at the grocery store, my food tastes a lot better, my colon is a lot more functional, and the food is less than a few weeks old by the time I consume it(compare to 1-to-6-to-24 months old when bought from the local super-convenience-mart).

The co-ops are cheaper because you've cut out a middle man. For the same products to go from farm to store adds several layers, but the USDA regulations. All are skipped with the co-op model.

The co-op model is only viable for a few products in any location. Try getting fruit (citrus in particular) in the mid-west. Or off-season produce anywhere. I've not seen many co-op with meats either.

FWIW, I cannot even find fresh, non processed milk, or fresh eggs around here.

funkcicle wrote:"Organic" food isn't more expensive by design, it's more expensive because people are willing to accept that processed convenient garbage is "normal" and 'organic'='special',

Have you ever grown fruits or vegetables? I've done so (never to make a living, just for my family and friends) since I was a kid. I grow my tomatoes almost organically (so I use Miracle Gro; SUE ME!). By avoiding other chemicals, I double the amount of work it takes to tend them, and (between bugs and blight) cut my yield in half. That's okay for me, because I don't need that many tomatoes. But the judicious use of chemicals has made it possible for people to produce enough food that NO ONE ever needs to go hungry because there isn't enough food. Governments get in the way, distribution channels break down, but there is enough food because of modern farming with chemicals. I think there may be a case to be made that hormones have been overused in livestock production, but I'm not interested in a world where pesticides aren't available to save crops from swarming insects, or where blights can run unchecked and destroy half the nation's vegetable crops. As long as these are used judiciously, I don't see the problem.

As for hybrids -- again, I don't see the problem. Remember, an animal or a plant is a conglomeration of sugars and other carbohydrates, amino acids -- things that the body breaks down into components for its own use. Peeling a potato probably causes a lot more loss of nutritional value than hybridizing ever did.
________________________________
Joe Baker, who thinks everyone who hates America should try to get along without food grown here or agricultural methods developed here.

When one's quest for love morphs into a quest for food,It's not very long before you can't even get into your own pants.
www.johnreno.com/

bloke wrote:

Atkins deprives your brain of the carbohydrates it needs to function, and it causes you to become irritable as a result. Not good.

I don't hear a lot of M.D.'s making these sorts of statements (though they, admittedly, probably aren't the world's top biochemists either). I know nothing about this, but I would assume that if the consumption of large quantities of carbohydrates was needed for the brain to function, millions of Americans would be dropping dead - not in ten or twenty years, but in ten or twenty weeks.

I hadn't heard this either, but what I HAVE heard from medical people is that a complete lack of carbs will cause other important organs to shut down, i.e. kidneys. This is why the earlier attempts at marketing the Atkins (NO carbs whatsoever) failed miserably, IIRC. The Atkins we all know and loathe is actually a modified version of the original diet specifically designed not to kill you, heh, heh.

Josh Calkin, who thinks few deterrents are as effective as kidney failure.