TubeNet

Those of you who are in High School, teach it, or have a HS student may find a statistic at my kids' HS interesting; for my part, I'm curious whether it's extraordinary or typical.

My kids' school is 'one of' the best (not THE best) academic schools in the area, and 'one of' the best (just might be THE best) band schools in the area. The school is about 1800 students, about 200 or so in the band. The director of the band just pointed out something the other day at the band's annual banquet: 8 of the top 10 ranked students in this year's graduating class are in the band. Wow!

So is that extraordinary, or is that normal?
_______________________________
Joe Baker, whose graduating class' salutatorian was in the band , but nobody else in the top 5% or so.

...but you're forgetting that at least a fourth of the people who visit this website are baritone players.

And 20% of those are treble clef baritone players...
j/k

...so how many do you figure are alto clef baritone players?

bloke wrote:

Joe Baker wrote:Those of you who are in High School, teach it, or have a HS student may find a statistic at my kids' HS interesting; for my part, I'm curious whether it's extraordinary or typical.

My kids' school is 'one of' the best (not THE best) academic schools in the area, and 'one of' the best (just might be THE best) band schools in the area. The school is about 1800 students, about 200 or so in the band. The director of the band just pointed out something the other day at the band's annual banquet: 8 of the top 10 ranked students in this year's graduating class are in the band. Wow!

So is that extraordinary, or is that normal?
_______________________________
Joe Baker, whose graduating class' salutatorian was in the band , but nobody else in the top 5% or so.

Yeah Joe...

...but you're forgetting that at least a fourth of the people who visit this website are baritone players.

I didn't say 'all the band kids are smart'; I said 'all the smart kids are in the band'.
________________________
Joe Baker, who points out that there are drummers in the band too....Duh ....

bloke wrote:They must be the dumbest of all, because (obviously) they double on viola.

Conductors have to come from somewhere...

Joe,

This is typical. MENC often states that music makes you smarter (spatial reasoning, right-brain & left-brain use, etc). Others contend that music attracts smart students rather than actually makes them smarter. The truth is probably a combination of the two. There has been a lot of research that shows that good grades correlates with music involvement, but none that show causality. Actually, there have been a few studies that show a causal relationship between music and high academic achievement (mozart effect), but they are widely discredited.

Regardless of how typical it may be to have smart kids in band, you should still be proud of your kid and happy that they are blessed to be in a situation where high academics and high level of music making happen.

Gorilla Tuba wrote:Regardless of how typical it may be to have smart kids in band, you should still be proud of your kid and happy that they are blessed to be in a situation where high academics and high level of music making happen.

I thank God daily for my kids, and for the fantastic opportunities spread before them.
______________________________
Joe Baker, who wonders if 'daily' is really often enough...

Joe Baker wrote:So is that extraordinary, or is that normal?

I vote "normal", but not because I think we teach music in a way that increases mental facility. (All those things the MENC says are true only in a real music program, which seems to me unlike most band programs that focus on contest results.) I just think smart kids are more into books than football, and band gives them a choice of extracurricular activities outside of sports. Even athletic smart kids are often intellectually bored by sports, and slightly less so by band.

Rick "who thinks the smartest kids always seek the broadest intellectual stimulation, though not always the most positive" Denney

Gorilla Tuba wrote:Joe,

This is typical. MENC often states that music makes you smarter (spatial reasoning, right-brain & left-brain use, etc). Others contend that music attracts smart students rather than actually makes them smarter. The truth is probably a combination of the two. There has been a lot of research that shows that good grades correlates with music involvement, but none that show causality. Actually, there have been a few studies that show a causal relationship between music and high academic achievement (mozart effect), but they are widely discredited.

Regardless of how typical it may be to have smart kids in band, you should still be proud of your kid and happy that they are blessed to be in a situation where high academics and high level of music making happen.

Yep, it is impossible to prove causality in a scientific study. You can show a relationship between items, but cause and effect is only implied. Read Karl Popper's "The Logic of Scientific Discovery" for a more in depth discussion of this.

bloke wrote:
If you want to be in the band/orchestra/chorus, sign up. If you don't want to, do not sign up...

bloke "...but don't mess around in the band for some reason other than really wanting to be there"

I wish folks in my High School had adopted that philosophy.

Yeah Bloke,

Actually, it has a lot to do with the internal communication of the brain, and this benefit is much more easily seen through piano lessons at an early age than in high school students. Reading and mathematics improve and it is easy to see. Communication improves. The participation in music is an intrinsic reward witin itsef but it do mace yu smarder. spekely in ba splniihng. hoaify toaify! pthlhlkou poo poo waaaaa.

I've always thought those "music makes you smarter" arguments were for influencing school board members or other such people in power who are bent on cutting anything that isn't viewed by them as "academic core". not really for parents or students to determine how to shape minds.

I think that band/orchestra teachers would agree that the students there should be there because they want to be there and not because they want to magically become smarter. I did, however, become magically smarter. I am amazing...watch!

With a few turns of the wrist, a relish jar and with my magic mayo knife I can (presto change-o) make a tuna salad sandwich appear. Within a few minutes (SHAZAM!) I can make it disappear.

Ah yes, I amaze myself.

chiggins wrote:The whole "music makes you smarter" line of reasoning is pretty questionable (as a previous poster mentioned). I'm not a researcher, but my theory is that there are smart and not so smart kids in everything and the band "culture" can encourage naturaully smart students to excel.

Great post. I've no real opinion on the ability of music to improve cognitive development, but it's plain to me that participation in a band involves activities and experiences that, if applied to other classes, will improve performance.

Band members must develop discipline. They learn the value of repetition. They learn to isolate problem areas and focus on them, rather than pretend they don't exist. They learn that in order to perform well, one must prepare in advance. They learn (in a good band program, anyway) to assimilate information. They learn (contrary to the typical NEA feel-good phony self-esteem message) that there is a difference between doing a thing RIGHT, for which one should be rewarded, and doing it WRONG, for which one should be corrected.

Any student who applies these lessons to their studies will do better than if he or she does not. If the band students started out on average the same as the rest, I can see how they would end ahead.
______________________________
Joe Baker, whose first boss (at McDonald's, in 1977) always tried to staff his restaurant with band kids for similar reasons.

Just wanted to add another "yes, that's normal" comment.

I remember that the honors and higher-level classes in school were heavily populated with band kids, and the non-honors equivalents had virtually no band kids at all.

At my school, the valedictorian is also our principle euph. However, it doesn't seem like there's a direct correlation between academics and being in our band. However, the smarter kids do better at it. In our concert (lower) band, there is what I'd imagine is an average group of high school kids, a couple smart ones and more than a few not in this way blessed. However, in the symphonic band, almost everyone is in heavily honors and AP course work. I would agree less that band makes one smarter, and more that band gives smart kids another area to be good at.

Joe Baker wrote:Band members must develop discipline

Or kids who are good at band have already developed it. I vote for (C) - catch 22

My son Brian played euph in the H.S. band (trombone in jazz band) and was class valedictorian out of 980 students. He's now 30 and has his PhD (EE).

Joe, everything in your last post could be applied to sports as well, or a number of other things.

So will music make you smarter? Maybe, maybe not. I think it, like many other activities can refine your thinking. But make you smarter? I don't think that there is anyway to prove that.

replace "smarter" with "more successful" or "happier" and i think you'll be onto something...

I think it's more about giving a person an opportunity for self-expression. Heaven knows that most of our modern "entertainment" doesn't provide much of an avenue for it.