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Why are there not tenor and bass trombones in C? Trumpets are in C, tuba is in C. Wouldn't a C trombone be great for orchestra? Trombones are so simple in their design it seems like it wouldn't be technically difficult to make a C trombone. Tell me why.

Mark Finley wrote:want a C trombone? here you go

http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-608-yamaha ... mbone.aspx" target="_blank" target="_blank

That's just a normal Bb trombone.

kmorgancraw wrote:Why are there not tenor and bass trombones in C? Trumpets are in C, tuba is in C. Wouldn't a C trombone be great for orchestra? Trombones are so simple in their design it seems like it wouldn't be technically difficult to make a C trombone. Tell me why.

... tuba are in c (rare), F, Eb, C and BBb .. trombones come in bb (rare), f, eb, d, (rare) c, (rare) Bb, G (rare), F, Eb, BBb, tumpets are in b', a', g', f', eb', c', bb, f, eb, c, Bb

.. so most brass is NOT in C. Period.

And trombonists don't like to switch size of the instrument, because it takes much time to train the proper slide positions. On a valved instrument it's easy, either you press the button or you don't.

That is why trombonists mostly stick to alto in eb, tenor in Bb, bass in Bb, contrabass in F. On a independent bass trombone you have to learn and hit 4 (!!!!) different sets of slide positions , Bb, Gb, F and D, which is more than complicate enough. Same complexity on a contrabass with two valves and a slide. No need to make it more complicated by playing trombones in C or D

On the other hand, it is quite easy to learn to read different clefs or to transpose into different keys, no matter which instrument you play. Most good trombonists are fluently reading alto, tenor, bas clef plus treble clef in Bb and/or C. A skill which is easliy transported to euph or tuba.

That's why odd sizes of trombones are not played much.

kmorgancraw wrote:

Mark Finley wrote:want a C trombone? here you go

http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-608-yamaha ... mbone.aspx" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

That's just a normal Bb trombone.

Nope. That's a trombone in C with the 1-tone valve reversed, i.e. ascending to C when pressed. The slide is too short for a good 7th position in Bb-mode (valve not depressed). It's build for young students not yet having the full arm length.

C trombones were produced decades ago and labeled 'preacher' models. They fell out of favor along with C melody saxophones.

I have a Jupiter valve trombone in C. It's one of my favorite horns to play. Opera orchestras back in the time of Verdi and Puccini often used valve trombones.

Ace

marccromme wrote: Nope. That's a trombone in C with the 1-tone valve reversed, i.e. ascending to C when pressed. The slide is too short for a good 7th position in Bb-mode (valve not depressed). It's build for young students not yet having the full arm length.

I'm confused about how this trombone is utilized. I assume the player ordinarily plays as if the horn is in Bb, with the valve not depressed (Bb loop is engaged). So if the 7th position is already too short, what is accomplished by shortening the horn to C?

Hup

Dan Schultz wrote:C trombones were produced decades ago and labeled 'preacher' models. They fell out of favor along with C melody saxophones.

As in "I can play out of the church hymnals and the piano doesn't sound weird"?

kmorgancraw wrote: Wouldn't a C trombone be great for orchestra?

I'm not sure if you're trolling us OP, but if you aren't please explain what would be so great about a C trombone for orchestra? I'm not getting what would be inherently better about C Trombone.

Here are some of my thoughts:

-The change in air resistance between different notes on a piston instrument and a slide instrument is different. Because of the way a trombone is built, I find that there is less variation in the way that you need to blow to get the same tone on different notes.

-Most orchestral music is not in C Major. Thus you wouldn't benefit from open partials of an instrument.

-The dreaded 5th position on a C trombone would place it on the Ab harmonic series (Ab,Ab,Eb,Ab,C, Eb, Gb-,Ab etc) which are fairly important pitches to be able to reliably play.

-Without triggers, F# would become the lowest note, and at this point with the quantity of répertoire written that exploits the low E, alternatives would need to be found.

-Scale patterns on the trombone ( unlike potentially the fingering patterns on woodwinds, and certain valve combinations on piston/rotary brass) are not more difficult, plus in the upper register because of tuning corrections with the slides alternatives are more frequent. No tuba player uses pitches in the 7th harmonic or the instrument, for trombonists, that harmonic is super common because they can pull it up into tune.

PMeuph wrote:

kmorgancraw wrote: Wouldn't a C trombone be great for orchestra?

I'm not sure if you're trolling us OP, but if you aren't please explain what would be so great about a C trombone for orchestra? I'm not getting what would be inherently better about C Trombone.

Here are some of my thoughts:

-The change in air resistance between different notes on a piston instrument and a slide instrument is different. Because of the way a trombone is built, I find that there is less variation in the way that you need to blow to get the same tone on different notes.

-Most orchestral music is not in C Major. Thus you wouldn't benefit from open partials of an instrument.

-The dreaded 5th position on a C trombone would place it on the Ab harmonic series (Ab,Ab,Eb,Ab,C, Eb, Gb-,Ab etc) which are fairly important pitches to be able to reliably play.

-Without triggers, F# would become the lowest note, and at this point with the quantity of répertoire written that exploits the low E, alternatives would need to be found.

-Scale patterns on the trombone ( unlike potentially the fingering patterns on woodwinds, and certain valve combinations on piston/rotary brass) are not more difficult, plus in the upper register because of tuning corrections with the slides alternatives are more frequent. No tuba player uses pitches in the 7th harmonic or the instrument, for trombonists, that harmonic is super common because they can pull it up into tune.

No PMeuph, not trolling. I can't explain why C trombone would be great for orchestra, which is why I ASKED a question... I apologize for not knowing more about trombone physics.

kmorgancraw wrote:

PMeuph wrote:

kmorgancraw wrote: Wouldn't a C trombone be great for orchestra?

I'm not sure if you're trolling us OP, but if you aren't please explain what would be so great about a C trombone for orchestra? I'm not getting what would be inherently better about C Trombone.

Here are some of my thoughts:

-The change in air resistance between different notes on a piston instrument and a slide instrument is different. Because of the way a trombone is built, I find that there is less variation in the way that you need to blow to get the same tone on different notes.

-Most orchestral music is not in C Major. Thus you wouldn't benefit from open partials of an instrument.

-The dreaded 5th position on a C trombone would place it on the Ab harmonic series (Ab,Ab,Eb,Ab,C, Eb, Gb-,Ab etc) which are fairly important pitches to be able to reliably play.

-Without triggers, F# would become the lowest note, and at this point with the quantity of répertoire written that exploits the low E, alternatives would need to be found.

-Scale patterns on the trombone ( unlike potentially the fingering patterns on woodwinds, and certain valve combinations on piston/rotary brass) are not more difficult, plus in the upper register because of tuning corrections with the slides alternatives are more frequent. No tuba player uses pitches in the 7th harmonic or the instrument, for trombonists, that harmonic is super common because they can pull it up into tune.

No PMeuph, not trolling. I can't explain why C trombone would be great for orchestra, which is why I ASKED a question... I apologize for not knowing more about trombone physics.

Fair enough, my suspicion arose from 2 things. One, the overdrawn CC vs BBb tuba debate that has plagued this board, and others, for decades. Second, from your use of "Wouldn't", which I interpreted as rhetorical.

No apologies needed, everyone we meet knows something we don't and the only we way we get to find out is by asking questions.

bloke wrote:google: trombone preacher model
and learn more.

"The only trombone they could ever teach me, was the son of a..."

(Sorry. Just had to get it out of my system. Carry on, don't mind me)

Hello all,

I owned for a few years an old rotary valve trombone successfully cut to C. It was an interesting horn to try out, but I found no use for it outside my practise room and sold it. I have never played a slide trombone in C and would not see really any practical use for one - since as stated above most advanced trombonists transpose quite easily.

Regards,
Martin

I like the way nobody can find fault with the performances made on Bb instruments in this thread.

swillafew wrote:I like the way nobody can find fault with the performances made on Bb instruments in this thread.

Tuba forum ???

Honestly, I can't find any that are in fact caused by the fact that the horn is in Bb and would be instantly solved if the horn is in C.

Blowing through 13 feet of tubing with very few bends or blowing through 12 feet of tubing with very few bends seems like it would be very similar to me...

PMeuph wrote:

swillafew wrote:I like the way nobody can find fault with the performances made on Bb instruments in this thread.

Tuba forum ???

Honestly, I can't find any that are in fact caused by the fact that the horn is in Bb and would be instantly solved if the horn is in C.

Blowing through 13 feet of tubing with very few bends or blowing through 12 feet of tubing with very few bends seems like it would be very similar to me...

BBb = 18 feet
CC = 16 feet
Eb = 13 1/2 feet
f = 12 feet

sorta

Dan Schultz wrote:

PMeuph wrote:

swillafew wrote:I like the way nobody can find fault with the performances made on Bb instruments in this thread.

Tuba forum ???

Honestly, I can't find any that are in fact caused by the fact that the horn is in Bb and would be instantly solved if the horn is in C.

Blowing through 13 feet of tubing with very few bends or blowing through 12 feet of tubing with very few bends seems like it would be very similar to me...

BBb = 18 feet
CC = 16 feet
Eb = 13 1/2 feet
f = 12 feet

sorta

Yup, 7th position on either Bb or c trombone would be in the 12-13 foot range.

menroth wrote:I have never played a slide trombone in C and would not see really any practical use for one - since as stated above most advanced trombonists transpose quite easily.

Having grown up attending a church rooted in the American Holiness Movement, I had the opportunity to sit under the pastoral care of a number of older (close to retirement age) ministers who were reasonably adept on C trombone, and to rub elbows with several dozen others. As best as I can recall, all of those men were what we would now call "bi-vocational," farming or working blue collar jobs by day, and pastoring congregations evenings and weekends. (This was a denomination in which, up until the early to mid-70s, when it came time to find a new pastor, the names of all the male members were written on slips of paper and put into an offering plate, from which the oldest male member of the congregation drew a slip, and whoever's name was on the slip became the new pastor.)

Few of those men had formal music training beyond the rudiments of "tongue and blow": mostly, they played by ear and/or from memory. Their reason for taking up the trombone (or C trumpet, as the case may be) was purely practical and born of necessity: to be able to lead congregational music in their churches—many of which lacked a piano and/or a competent pianist; and most of them learned to play from their mentors or other pastors in the district. So the notion of "advanced trombonists" who would have been able to "transpose easily" reflects a world quite at odds with the sociological reality of the the communities in which those men moved. While this may not have been the case for every denomination associated with the Holiness Movement, it was the case for the denomination in which I grew up and the related denominations of which I was familiar at the time.

To the question of why for C trombone as opposed to Bb trombone, my guess is that, at least initially (Post-bellum 19th-early 20th century), given the large preponderance of hymns in C, G, F in hymnals of that era, the preference for C trombones reflects the facility with which notes in those overtone series can be accessed on a C trombone, as opposed to a Bb trombone, e.g., accessing C-Bnat is a whole lot easier and quicker in 1-2 on a C horn than 6-7 on a Bb.

bloke wrote:C trombone...

Were I to build one with a thumb valve...the 7th position would (of course) be F# (instead of E)...and the playing slide length would be shorter (not as far to 7th position)...
...so I would probably still pitch the F-attachment in F...a so-called "quint" valve, which would offer a nearly completely chromatic instrument.
i.e. there would be a playable low Db without yanking on any tuning slides.

I'm not so sure about that. A proportional C trombone will have a shorter slide than a Bb trombone and most Bb/F trombones have low Db near the end of the slide (and usually an unrealistic C). With a quint valve C/F trombone you'd need to tune the F valve sharp as you will only have one place to play it.

Dan Schultz wrote:C trombones were produced decades ago and labeled 'preacher' models. They fell out of favor along with C melody saxophones.

Joke for the day: do you know how many C-melody saxophone players you can fit in a phone booth? All of them!