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So what has changed about child rearing practices that a kid has no compunction about facing off with a teacher in the classroom, with factual inaccuracies, and demanding that his/her "opinion be respected?" Are people just letting their two year olds run the household? Anybody seen that Nanny show, where absolutely CLUELESS parents have this lady tell them the bare basic bones about consistency and parental authority? How did this happen? I certainly would have changed some things about how I was reared, as would many of us, but letting the two year old run the show wouldn't have been one of them.

Personally, I wonder how much to blame is the mentality in education of having the child's self esteem be more important than getting their facts correct....having them fail, or be wrong, is seen as the fatal blow to the delicate little things. So they grow up totally unable to handle being told they are wrong about any little thing, and boy do we have a problem on our hands. And another interesting bit of data I've read, is the criminals generally have extremely high levels of self esteem, which is what makes them so unconcerned about breaking the law and unreactive to other people's hurt.

MA

MaryAnn wrote:Personally, I wonder how much to blame is the mentality in education of having the child's self esteem be more important than getting their facts correct....

This is half of it.

Children being raised by day-care workers is the other half, though THAT actually has two components: first, the day-care worker has no vested interest in developing a mature citizen. Her (usually but not necessarily a woman) primary concerns are getting the child to keep coming back (without the kids, there's no paycheck) and minimizing the amount of work she has to do. BTW, that's not a knock on the day-care worker; go take care of 8 or 10 of these little hoodlums for 10 hours and see how many extra steps YOU want to take. The day-care SYSTEM is just not in the best interest of the children.

The second component of the day-care problem is that parents, often feeling guilty about being absent, and anxious to have as much fun as possible with their children in the few hours they see them, simply don't impose any discipline. Junior doesn't want to go to bed? Let him stay up another hour. The little darling doesn't want to put her plate in the dishwasher? That's okay, Mommy will do it for her.

By the time the kids hit Jr. High and are totally out of control, Mom & Dad haven't a clue what to do. All they know is that life at home will have conflict if they don't back up their baby against whatever accusations have been made; and we all know that conflict is ALWAYS the worst thing that could possibly happen, right?

But definitely, the religion of self-esteem that is practiced in the schools is a huge, HUGE factor.

Even for the parents who go to great lengths to do all this stuff right, it's difficult to keep the kids thinking right. They go to school and see their friends get away with murder, only to have Moms & Dads come in and take their baby's side. The kids whose parents demand some accountability can't help thinking, "I act a lot better than that kid, and my parents don't automatically take my side; why don't they trust me as much as his parents trust him?" It's really, really difficult to raise kids right in a cultural environment as messed up as the one we have today.
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Joe Baker, who is trying his best, but often feels quite inadequate to the task.

LV wrote:

Doc wrote:Maybe they need to cull out these parents. You know... check (stop) the breed.

Doc

Man, if that was only possible! Wouldn't it be great...

See my post on the property rights discussion.

(responding to Joe)
You know, Joe, there has to have been "something" that occurred in the generation between ours and the one now coming up; a middle generation that wanted to further relax restrictions on their own children, from the relaxations that occurred with their generation. As in, they haven't seen any negative effects, from their point of view, from the more relaxed upbringing they had, compared to ours, and saw no reason to not further relax. I think that my attempts to "better love" my kids (if I had had any) might have brought about little hellions in the midrange of hellionism. Then they, still feeling unloved in their young child-bearing years, might have gone even farther in their attempts to fix the scenario and ended up with the full-blown hellionism of today.
Of course not all kids are hellions today....but it seems that many who are left in the public school system are; the ones who can afford private schools often go that route.
I also think that the middle generation had just enough lack of personal responsibility as to not realize that a further lack would bring down the house, so to speak. The bringing down resulting in the two year olds running it and the parents' expecting immature minds to not need firm guidance at all, but responding to intellectual, ineffectual pleas to "please behave."
All I've raised is a few cats, but a couple of them (the male ones, incidently) needed a whack just once or twice, to show that I was the one in charge.
MA

I read similar articles recently, but a quick google search found:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131584,00.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7374218/

http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_ ... ng_purple/[/url]

Remember when a bad paper looked like it was bleeding...
You knew you screwed up then.

Or perhaps it's sports:
http://www.positivecoach.org/arDisplay. ... 130&ID=151

MaryAnn wrote:All I've raised is a few cats, but a couple of them (the male ones, incidently) needed a whack just once or twice, to show that I was the one in charge.
MA

If that whack was to a child in public, you'd likely go to jail


Could that be part of the problem?

Well, I dunno if that is the problem. There's a difference between an attention-getting whack and a session with the belt behind the garage. The parent who needs the belt is lacking somewhere else, usually.

One friend of mine who had a kid acting up badly in a restuarant took the boy into the restroom and told him that if he did not start behaving immediately that he would take down his pants and spank him bare-bottomed in front of everyone in the restuarant. The kid behaved spectacularly well after that.

Aside from worrying about true abuse, I also worry about the kid who is being carried kicking and screaming towards a car, in the arms of someone who is not a parent or caregiver, and people ignoring the screams because it's "just a kid."

It seems we've ended up with a generation with no discipline who STILL feel that no one loves or respects them. THAT is the problem that needs addressing, and we've gone about addressing it in the wrong way with the whole self-esteem thing.

So how do you bring up with a kid who feels loved and respected, and who also has a sense of responsibility and personal discipline? I do think that someone who has been treated with love and respect will automatically mirror the behavior that made him feel that way, and also treat others with love and respect. (not all, but most.) So the kids who are screeching that they are being disrespected....have got totally the wrong idea of what respect is.

MA

LV wrote:

Doug@GT wrote:

LV wrote: Man, if that was only possible! Wouldn't it be great...

See my post on the property rights discussion.

You mean this one...

Doug@GT wrote:...I figured he meant hunting people. Of course, that is the next logical step after today's ruling...

Yeah. You know, make being stupid a capital offense.

If that whack was to a child in public, you'd likely go to jail

....didn't have to go to jail...but a few meetings with the social services group, 6 weeks of home visits, and me basically telling them "you don't cut me a check on the 1st of the month so I'll raise them any way I want" and they finally started to see things my way. Nothing like having a 21 yr old college grad with no kids tell you how to raise your children

MaryAnn wrote:So how do you bring up with a kid who feels loved and respected, and who also has a sense of responsibility and personal discipline?

It's not complicated, but it's hard. My rules for raising the kids:

1. Provide a set of rules that allow reasonable room to explore and learn; but rigidly enforce violations, so that there is no question in the kids' minds where the limit is.

2. Place the needs of the kids ahead of your own. You don't have to make a big deal of 'showing' them; over time they'll understand that they are of value to you. A big part of that is spending time with them. And a big part of that is, to the extent it is POSSIBLE (sometimes it isn't) raise them yourself. There were times when I worked days and my wife worked nights to avoid putting the kids in day care all day. It can almost always be done, if the parents BOTH put the kids FIRST.

3. Read books and watch movies together, and talk about them. They are a framework for talking about feelings, priorities, sacrifices -- lessons in love, life and discipline.

4. Assemble a short list of "personal proverbs" to teach the kids the important lessons of life. For example, whenever the kids would see an athlete or musician do something extraordinary, they'd say "how did she DO that". I would respond -- so often that they would say it with me -- "Unusual God-given ability, years of practice, and total commitment to excellence". I also taught them Bible verses and quotes that carried the important lessons. One of my favorites was Vince Lombardi: "The quality of a person's life is directly proportional to that persons commitment to excellence, regardless of their chosen field".

5. Celebrate different levels of achievement differently. Trying their best but falling short is good, but not as good as succeeding. Doing better than last time is good, but not as good as doing the best of anyone. A kid should never feel like a failure because their best effort came in third place, but they should feel a greater thrill coming in first than third. Why else would they continue to work to improve?

6. I know not everyone will buy this, but I consider it as important as any: pray for them ALL THE TIME. To my shame, I'm not as faithful to do this as I should be. I get busy and forget.

My kids aren't perfect. They forget to do chores sometimes, don't always do their homework -- they're people and they fall short. But they're pretty awesome people, and I'm proud of them, even if I'm not always proud of every thing they do.
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Joe Baker, who thinks too few people understand the difference between loving a PERSON and loving everything that person DOES.

Those are some excelleht rules, Joe. Thanks for sharing them with us.

When my son first started acting up, I got a small paperback book about discipline. It didn't work. Then I got a big hardcover book on child rearing. Sure enough, it worked like a charm on his rear.

Seriously:
This week is my son's third VBS (Vacation Bible School) this summer. He had NO problems at the first two. The second day here, they told me about all kinds of problems with him and another boy - they were on the verge of kicking him out (of church! I haven't been kicked out of a church in almost 10 years. )
So, I had a very firm discussion with him and administered appropriate punishment (much of it not physical.) He has been trouble free since then, and told the teacher when he got hit and pinched. Now the other kid is in trouble with the church, and my son is commended for his self control. Moral of this story: Strong parenting and sensible discipline works. Too bad the other kid's parents didn't do the same thing.

Hmmmm, I wonder if I can adopt Tuba4Sissies. Might have to get a reallllly big book on discipline.

MartyNeilan wrote:Hmmmm, I wonder if I can adopt Tuba4Sissies. Might have to get a reallllly big book on discipline.

"It takes the proper application of the board of education!"


My opinion of 2x4CiCi's has improved dramatically the last couple of days, to his great credit.
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Joe Baker, whose school-years behavior was much better than it otherwise might have been, due to the willingness of school officials to use a paddle.

Joe Baker wrote:Joe Baker, whose school-years behavior was much better than it otherwise might have been, due to the willingness of school officials to use a paddle.

And if the school official used a paddle, what was waiting at home was even more of a deterrent.

ThomasDodd wrote:

Joe Baker wrote:Joe Baker, whose school-years behavior was much better than it otherwise might have been, due to the willingness of school officials to use a paddle.

And if the school official used a paddle, what was waiting at home was even more of a deterrent.

Not for me. Oh, I'd-a-got whooped worse at home than at school; but pain was not the deterrent. What scared me to death was the thought that it might bring tears to my eyes, and be seen by the other guys. That would have been a disaster beyond anything I could imagine!
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Joe Baker, who was on tenuous social ground as a teenager.

tubalawlisa wrote:Certain parts of society have come to view it wrong to wait until even 30 to have children.

Looking at the history of humans, witing untill 30 is a very recent development. Even 18 is old, historically. But kid aren't tought to be parents,at 18 or 30.

I don't like being in this position, but I want to be able to know I've met the right person and know that I can financially support a family FIRST, not after the fact.

How can you ever know those things? It a case of the more you know the more you know you don't know. As you get older you realize all the possibilities and delay to cover them. So first it's finish college and get a job, then it's buy a house, then ... Soon you're 50 and never had kids.

You'd do just fine now. It'd take sacrifice, but it will take that later too. We can only learn by doing. At 22 I wasn't sure I wase ready, but 10 years later my kids are doing fine. They are healthy, have food, shelter, and clothing. 12 years ago I would not have thought I could do it.

ThomasDodd wrote:

How can you ever know those things? It a case of the more you know the more you know you don't know. As you get older you realize all the possibilities and delay to cover them. So first it's finish college and get a job, then it's buy a house, then ... Soon you're 50 and never had kids.

You'd do just fine now. It'd take sacrifice, but it will take that later too. We can only learn by doing. At 22 I wasn't sure I wase ready, but 10 years later my kids are doing fine. They are healthy, have food, shelter, and clothing. 12 years ago I would not have thought I could do it.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

ThomasDodd wrote:

tubalawlisa wrote: don't like being in this position, but I want to be able to know I've met the right person and know that I can financially support a family FIRST, not after the fact.

How can you ever know those things? It a case of the more you know the more you know you don't know. As you get older you realize all the possibilities and delay to cover them. So first it's finish college and get a job, then it's buy a house, then ... Soon you're 50 and never had kids.

You'd do just fine now. It'd take sacrifice, but it will take that later too. We can only learn by doing. At 22 I wasn't sure I wase ready, but 10 years later my kids are doing fine. They are healthy, have food, shelter, and clothing. 12 years ago I would not have thought I could do it.

When my brother's wife discovered she was expecting, at a time when my brother was barely out of the police academy and had NOTHING in the bank, he expected Dad to scold him for his carelessness. Dad's response: "Son, if everyone waited 'til they were ready to have kids before they had them, the human race would have died out long ago." It's true; if you have the character to sacrifice for your kids, everything else can be worked out.

But I have to say, it amazes me that I still see people who have kids because they figure that's just what you're "supposed" to do. I know couples who are both work-a-holics, who drop the kids off at day-care (or let the nanny in) at 7:00 AM, and don't see their kids again 'til 7:00 that night. They spend a couple of hours with the kids, then off to bed -- WHY DID THESE PEOPLE HAVE CHILDREN?!?!? When I see this it makes me very much respect people who are honest enough to just say "We want to do certain things, and those things are incompatible with proper parenting, so we have decided to not have children."
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BTW, I've been hard on day-care (which I think it usually deserves) but I would like to say that there is such a thing as responsible use of it. How many times have you seen a mother drag her exhausted kids through a bunch of errands, making the mother, the kids, and everyone around them miserable? Dropping the kids off -- occasionally, for a couple of hours, for some supervised activity with other kids -- isn't any problem. There are also folks (I believe, based upon comments I've read here, that our host and his wife fit this category) whose jobs require only limited time in day-care, not 8 or more hours per day. Again, that's not the problem. It's the parents who unnecessarily leave their kids there 8,10, even 12 hours per day, every day, that are the problem. A lot of those folks need to downgrade their lifestyle, put a career on hold for a few years, work alternating shifts, or do whatever it takes to pay attention to their kids. Neither big houses, nor fancy cars, nor even career aspirations are as important as kids.
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Joe Baker, who thinks people need to be parents FIRST or not at all.

Joe Baker wrote:Dad's response: "Son, if everyone waited 'til they were ready to have kids before they had them, the human race would have died out long ago."

A lot like what my father said to me.

When I see this it makes me very much respect people who are honest enough to just say "We want to do certain things, and those things are incompatible with proper parenting, so we have decided to not have children."

That different. "knowing" you ready for kids before you have them really means not having klids. Deciding to not have kids so you can do stuff that kids won't allow you to do is not about being "ready" That proper prioritization.

There are a lot of things I wanted to do, that I haven't because I have kids. Someday, they will be grown and on their own, then I can do those things or other, nore interesting, stuff. I cannot imagine having my first kid now. Having the second last year has been hard, but at least we knew what we were doing this time. Not sure I could have handled the shock now that I went through 10 years ago. I could do a lot of things then that I cannot do now (like class, work, and study on 2 hours sleep ) And had I the money I have now, and no family, the lifestyle hit would have been much more difficult. There are many valid reasons for having kids when you youger rather than older.

Well, on having kids....it's not like the population is dropping at an alarming rate, you know? People who have kids because they "should" really "should not." The only reason to have kids is if you have a tremendous love that you want to focus on a little human being. Too many people have a kid for the opposite reason....to have a little human being who looks up to them and gives THEM love. Wrong, wrong, wrong!! Then you end up with another messed-up kid who never got the love he needed, because his entire reason for being brought into the world was backwards.

And to bloke, who commented on my views matching the opposite political party from the one he assumes I'm aligned with. The problem with the opposite political party is that it wants to cram its religion down my throat, and it is completely controlled by big business. I'll never, ever, support a party with those goals. I'll support the environment first and personal rights second; if we continue to ruin the planet we won't have anywhere for our kids to live, and if we continue to take away personal rights our kids won't have any choices left in how to live their lives on the ruined planet.

MA