Face Masks

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Be kind. No government, state, or local politics allowed. Admin has final decision for any/all removed posts.
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Re: Face Masks

Post by Three Valves »

Not politics;

Why are CA, WA and NY returning hospital ships, dispersing unused ventilators, and opening beaches if this second wave of the Black Plague is inevitable??

If the USA were lagging behind Europe or S Korea in per capita testing, it would clearly be inadequate, but...

Just facts, just science??
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Re: Face Masks

Post by roweenie »

Also not politics, just a report from someone "on the ground".

My daughter, who works as a statistician in a hospital in a county that has had a low incidence of the virus, just arrived tonight and is visiting me for the weekend (yes, heaven forefend, violating the social distancing rules, call the secret police!)

She informed me that one of the tragic "by-products" of this pandemic (among others) is the number of diabetic amputations is up dramatically, all due to the lack of care that they normally would have received, were it not for the governor's statewide broad-brush suspension of all care deemed "elective".

And remember, this is in an area that had no "curve" to "flatten". And in all the virus "coverage" I've seen, I don't ever recall seeing a story of this nature - I'm certain that my daughter's hospital isn't the only one in the nation that's experiencing something like this. Maybe stories like this don't "fit the narrative" either.

But, I suppose they should feel honored to sacrifice a limb, knowing they didn't tie up a hospital room for a prospective patient that never arrived.
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Re: Face Masks

Post by Donn »

roweenie wrote:
Donn wrote:There's massive support for the governors who have shut down their states' economies, like 3/4 of the public
Where did you find this statistic, and which states does it apply to? How can anybody possibly know this figure accurately?
Polls. Politico/Morning Consult, NBC, Reuters-Ipsos, Yahoo News/YouGov, on the national level; local results here in Washington state are similar. I don't make a habit of consulting these sources, so I'm not going to defend any of them, but the trend is pretty obvious. One site announced poll results with "POLL: MOST AMERICANS THINK ANTI-QUARANTINE PROTESTERS ARE IDIOTS", and that says it right there. That doesn't even get around to the guys in Texas defending tattoo parlors with assault rifles, that's another level. This is what I'm talking about. It's practically impossible to have a balanced discussion, when this kind of circus is going on.
And, even if your statistic is accurate (which I do not grant you) the Bill of Rights doesn't make allowances for "3/4 of the people agree with whatever their governor wishes to do during a pandemic".

It's news to me that we threw away the Constitution in favor of popularity polls.
Stuff and nonsense. States' constitutional authority to impose quarantines has been recognized by the US Supreme Court since the 19th century.
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Re: Face Masks

Post by gwwilk »

Donn wrote:Stuff and nonsense. States' constitutional authority to impose quarantines has been recognized by the US Supreme Court since the 19th century.
Quarantines apply to individuals with known contagious diseases and their contacts. Applying it willy-nilly to all citizens of a state is NOT quarantine, it's a patently illegal 24 hour curfew of the citizenry. And yes, quarantine has been blatantly abused in the US before. We on this forum are a part of the 'free media' to which the linked article refers.
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Re: Face Masks

Post by roweenie »

Since polls can easily be skewed by how questions are asked, with no control to assure absence of bias, I consider them worthless. IIRC, the current president was predicted to lose in a landslide, based on polls from the exact same sources you quoted.

I was going to comment on the constitutionality (and definition) of quarantine, but I see gwwilk beat me to it - and more eloquently than I would have been.

As to the protesters with "assault rifles" (honestly, what the hell does that term mean? An "assault rifle" is a weapon that can fire automatically, and Americans have been denied access to them since the 1930s), it's easy to paint an entire populace with a broad brush just because of a few idiots - I believe the term for that is called "predjudice", no?

But then again, since we insist on making this a right/left argument (which I have tried to avoid) I suppose the left has never used violence (or the threat of same) when protesting, right?

https://www.newsweek.com/antifa-far-lef ... on-1477065" target="_blank

Circus, yes - but no one side holds the patent on clowns - let's be clear about that.
Last edited by roweenie on Fri May 15, 2020 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Face Masks

Post by Donn »

gwwilk wrote: Quarantines apply to individuals with known contagious diseases and their contacts. Applying it willy-nilly to all citizens of a state is NOT quarantine, it's a patently illegal 24 hour curfew of the citizenry. And yes, quarantine has been blatantly abused in the US before.
As should be clear from that analysis, the states' authority to impose a quarantine is not a special case, it's an example of the things states may do "flowing from the acknowledged power of a State to provide for the health of its citizens." [Chief Justice John Marshal, 1824] Whether a state action meets some definition of "quarantine" is irrelevant, it's more about whether it's an appropriate response to a public health emergency:
Under Jacobson, courts might reject a measure only if it were arbitrary, were unreasonable or went far beyond what was reasonably required for the safety of the public. Such a finding would likely be closely tied to whether or not it had been adopted on the recommendation of experts in public health.
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Re: Face Masks

Post by gwwilk »

Donn wrote:
gwwilk wrote: Quarantines apply to individuals with known contagious diseases and their contacts. Applying it willy-nilly to all citizens of a state is NOT quarantine, it's a patently illegal 24 hour curfew of the citizenry. And yes, quarantine has been blatantly abused in the US before.
As should be clear from that analysis, the states' authority to impose a quarantine is not a special case, it's an example of the things states may do "flowing from the acknowledged power of a State to provide for the health of its citizens." [Chief Justice John Marshal, 1824] Whether a state action meets some definition of "quarantine" is irrelevant, it's more about whether it's an appropriate response to a public health emergency:
Under Jacobson, courts might reject a measure only if it were arbitrary, were unreasonable or went far beyond what was reasonably required for the safety of the public. Such a finding would likely be closely tied to whether or not it had been adopted on the recommendation of experts in public health.
Again, a quarantine is applied to specific individuals, not to entire populations statewide. Apples and oranges.
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Re: Face Masks

Post by Three Valves »

At the recommendation of public health experts, I am willing to stay six feet from other people, wear a mask in enclosed areas, and wash my hands frequently. But that’s it.

The standard should not be if a liquor store is more essential than a shoe shop.

The standard should be if the shop can be operated with a reasonable amount of care and safety.

Let’s all agree to follow the science and get back to work now.
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Re: Face Masks

Post by Three Valves »

Donn wrote:
This is something a lot of the "we want our rights" crowd seems to have missed. There's massive support for the governors who have shut down their states' economies, like 3/4 of the public, and it isn't because they've been lied to.
In Birmingham they love the Governor...
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Re: Face Masks

Post by Three Valves »

nworbekim wrote:
have the closings been necessary? all i know is the experts say so... but in truth?

Anyone with an “ski” at the end of their name is trustworthy and wise....
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Re: Face Masks

Post by Donn »

gwwilk wrote:Again, a quarantine is applied to specific individuals, not to entire populations statewide. Apples and oranges.
Again, that's immaterial, because the states' authority is not restricted to quarantines. The passage I quoted was about compulsory vaccination. The state may use apples, oranges, rhubarb or whatever a health emergency calls for. You aren't going to see any new constitutional case law coming out of this event, it's settled.
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Re: Face Masks

Post by gwwilk »

Donn wrote:
gwwilk wrote:Again, a quarantine is applied to specific individuals, not to entire populations statewide. Apples and oranges.
Again, that's immaterial, because the states' authority is not restricted to quarantines. The passage I quoted was about compulsory vaccination. The state may use apples, oranges, rhubarb or whatever a health emergency calls for. You aren't going to see any new constitutional case law coming out of this event, it's settled.
Then stop talking about quarantines when you mean total shutdown of a state, i.e. a shelter at home edict.
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Re: Face Masks

Post by roweenie »

Donn wrote:You aren't going to see any new constitutional case law coming out of this event, it's settled.
I'm glad to see you're now the official mouthpiece for the Supreme Court (or maybe you have a crystal ball?)

I'm not saying that there will be new case law about this particular topic (although I pray there will be, yes, even the Supreme Court is human, fallible, and not above politics) but to say the Court has never reversed itself and that something is "settled", once and for all time, is not accurate.

https://www.ushistory.org/us/32a.asp" target="_blank
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Re: Face Masks

Post by Ace »

SteveP wrote:Well Ace, did you ever think that your link to a funny virus-related video would turn into this? The virus, however, is something that affects us all and does need to be discussed from a variety of viewpoints. It's too bad, though, that the thread got so far from your original intent. Someone maybe should have started another with this direction intended.

Now I'm off, maskless, to my realtor's office to look and maybe write up a deal on a rental home that we're considering purchasing. Life goes on.
Steve, your observations above are very correct. Thanks for your comments. By the way, good luck in your purchase of rental property. For twenty years, I owned a rental property and it had a positive cash flow all the way. You'll do well.

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Re: Face Masks

Post by hup_d_dup »

Questions:

1. Was all this anger and contempt caused by the virus and its consequences, of was it always bubbling below the surface ready to erupt?

2. Is it easier for us to devolve on the internet, because we don't have to talk face-to-face?

3. Is it more dangerous for us to talk face-to-face because of the possibility of physical harm?

4. What will become of us if and when we face a more serious crisis?

Hup
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Re: Face Masks

Post by Three Valves »

hup_d_dup wrote:
4. What will become of us if and when we face a more serious crisis?

Hup
Us and we will panic and over react. Then try to shame the rest of us, and we, who didn’t panic.

9/11, financial crisis, ‘Rona, ______
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Re: Face Masks

Post by Donn »

hup_d_dup wrote:4. What will become of us if and when we face a more serious crisis?
We already know that: we won't face it, at least until the time to take action has passed.
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Re: Face Masks

Post by FarahShazam »

I moved this back to Chatter. Be excellent to each other.
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