About a year ago, I acquired an Alexander 163 BBb that was built in 1970. The instrument plays great and sounds like an Alex, however, par for the course for Alexander tuba's built during this era, it plays flat. It has the original lead pipe and I do use a receiver adapter so that I can use a Bobo Symphonic with it (I have been approached by several repair folks who want to swap out the lead pipe and put a modern one on there instead and I have told them all the same answer: "No, I am good. I do not want to mess with the instrument. I love everything about it minus it playing flat).
I wanted to ask the community, especially the folks from the Alex community (Rudy 3/4 owner for ten plus years) to see if they have any suggestions or thoughts on the matter. I mainly use this instrument in the back row of a large German or Russian work. Very niche and specific use.
I appreciate it in advance!
Happy Holidays!
Help needed: Do I add a main tuning slide stick or not
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AGuti95
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Help needed: Do I add a main tuning slide stick or not
University of Kansas DMA/Ph.D 2027
Florida International University M.M 2023
Florida International University B.A. 2020
Florida International University M.M 2023
Florida International University B.A. 2020
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the elephant
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Re: Help needed: Do I add a main tuning slide stick or not
How would a rod on the main tuning slide help you if the tuba plays flat? A rod just allows you to move the MTS while you are playing. If the horn is uncorrectably flat it needs to be cut shorter. If it can be tuned then it is not "flat".
I do not undrstand what it is that you are asking, here. Your intended solution will not magically make the tuba shorter/higher in pitch.
Perhaps some additional detail would help us to help you.
I played my 163 for a living for twelve years, by the way. Great horns, if somewhat difficult to master.
I do not undrstand what it is that you are asking, here. Your intended solution will not magically make the tuba shorter/higher in pitch.
Perhaps some additional detail would help us to help you.
I played my 163 for a living for twelve years, by the way. Great horns, if somewhat difficult to master.
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AGuti95
- bugler
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Thu May 23, 2019 9:08 am
Re: Help needed: Do I add a main tuning slide stick or not
Hi there!the elephant wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2024 1:40 am How would a rod on the main tuning slide help you if the tuba plays flat? A rod just allows you to move the MTS while you are playing. If the horn is uncorrectably flat it needs to be cut shorter. If it can be tuned then it is not "flat".
I do not undrstand what it is that you are asking, here. Your intended solution will not magically make the tuba shorter/higher in pitch.
Perhaps some additional detail would help us to help you.
I played my 163 for a living for twelve years, by the way. Great horns, if somewhat difficult to master.
Thank you for your feedback. So, in my short time of having the instrument, I have found that the main tuning slide is maybe about 1/3 of the way out (it is sideways and pretty long). I have done a few experiments with manually moving the main slide and most of the intonation is manageable. My personal gripe is having to switch back and forth between pushing and pulling the first and fourth slides respectively. I wondered if adding a main tuning slide stick (maybe one with a fixed set point that I could adjust) would assist in the instrument's learning process.
Again, I appreciate all of the help. My main goal is to have the instrument work with me, not against me. The color and the sound is there. In comparison to a few other instruments, I have to work more.
University of Kansas DMA/Ph.D 2027
Florida International University M.M 2023
Florida International University B.A. 2020
Florida International University M.M 2023
Florida International University B.A. 2020
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the elephant
- bugler
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2024 3:21 pm
Re: Help needed: Do I add a main tuning slide stick or not
So why did you describe the horn itself as being "flat"? That is unrelated to an on-the-fly tuning adjustment device.
I had a rod attached to my 163 when I bought it in 1995. I removed it once I became familian enough with the horn to do what you are trying to avoid doing. For me, correcting pitch by moving your "home base" setti9ng is a road to fighting the horn in two ways rather than one. It was mentally much easier for me to ust move the slides that needed to be moved. I also discovered that my CC 163 was able to use just about any alternate fingering with the same sound and response as the factory fingering. (Not sure if that is a consistent thing with these horns of whether my was exceptional in this regard.) As I became better with the horn I found that I only had to move the 1st slide, with occasional pushes to 2nd. (My low B was very flat whereas the second line B was a bit sharp.) I had to discover that it needed to be tuned to the second space C rather than the low C. These were not in tune, and once i decided that I would say that the low C was flat rather than the middle one being sharp, it became much easier to play the horn.
Keep in mind that the CC version (which is the more out=of-tune version of the 163 — the BBb is not nearly so bad nor inconsistent) has a vertical slide, so the rod has only to connect to the MTS brace and runs directly up to the top bow, making such a device pretty easy to design, install, and use. The BBb horn has a horizontal slide, so the physical action of the devce and the locaton of your hand will cause some big issues for the designer.
I have seen a lot of Rube Goldberg-like devices on horizonatl slides, and only a few of them actually worked well, mechanically. Out of these, one that was designed like a super-large 2nd slide kicker worked the best and made the most sense to me, from an engineering point of view. I would look at rotary tuba 2nd slide kicker designs and see how you could apply that to something that large and far away from your hand. There will have to be at least two rods on see-saw-type pivots (one horizontal and one vertical) with one end connected to the slide and one to your hand. The slide will likely have to be carefully realigned and lapped in to move like a trombone slide, and a quick-release on the slide so you can disconnect and remove it from the horn when needed.
The issue is use. If you go with a design that is easier and that costs hundreds of dollars less to bring into being then you will probably end up with a lever that you pull toward your hand to make the slide go out, and push away to draw it back ion, and you need a self-centering device that allows you to lock the lever with the slide where you want it when you tune. If you don't then it will not return and you will have to have the lever strapped to your hand so you can 0ush and pull it and also return it each time, and doing that accurately is a major PITA. Even with my very simple rod on my CC I quickly became "lost" in getting the slide back to "home" after a challenging excerpt. It seems like it would be easy to do, but it isn't. That is why I removed it and learned to play the horn correctly, by adjusting things at the source and becoming adept at movning my left hand around to whetever it needed to be, adopting alternates as needed, and learning to lip more accurately then I had ever had to do in the past on other tubas.
Here is a hint that really helped me master my 163: Play it like a three-vlved trumpet. Use 4th with 24 only, use 13 and 1st slide for 4. Get your 1st slide very accuratly aligned — all four tubes must be nearly perfectly aligned. Then have it lapped so that is moves like a trombone hand slide. You will want a stop rod or a leash on it then so it does not fall out when you put the horn on its bell. Also, to move it very fast and accurately, you need to have 1st vented by someone who is experienced with venting rotary valves.
Good luck!
I had a rod attached to my 163 when I bought it in 1995. I removed it once I became familian enough with the horn to do what you are trying to avoid doing. For me, correcting pitch by moving your "home base" setti9ng is a road to fighting the horn in two ways rather than one. It was mentally much easier for me to ust move the slides that needed to be moved. I also discovered that my CC 163 was able to use just about any alternate fingering with the same sound and response as the factory fingering. (Not sure if that is a consistent thing with these horns of whether my was exceptional in this regard.) As I became better with the horn I found that I only had to move the 1st slide, with occasional pushes to 2nd. (My low B was very flat whereas the second line B was a bit sharp.) I had to discover that it needed to be tuned to the second space C rather than the low C. These were not in tune, and once i decided that I would say that the low C was flat rather than the middle one being sharp, it became much easier to play the horn.
Keep in mind that the CC version (which is the more out=of-tune version of the 163 — the BBb is not nearly so bad nor inconsistent) has a vertical slide, so the rod has only to connect to the MTS brace and runs directly up to the top bow, making such a device pretty easy to design, install, and use. The BBb horn has a horizontal slide, so the physical action of the devce and the locaton of your hand will cause some big issues for the designer.
I have seen a lot of Rube Goldberg-like devices on horizonatl slides, and only a few of them actually worked well, mechanically. Out of these, one that was designed like a super-large 2nd slide kicker worked the best and made the most sense to me, from an engineering point of view. I would look at rotary tuba 2nd slide kicker designs and see how you could apply that to something that large and far away from your hand. There will have to be at least two rods on see-saw-type pivots (one horizontal and one vertical) with one end connected to the slide and one to your hand. The slide will likely have to be carefully realigned and lapped in to move like a trombone slide, and a quick-release on the slide so you can disconnect and remove it from the horn when needed.
The issue is use. If you go with a design that is easier and that costs hundreds of dollars less to bring into being then you will probably end up with a lever that you pull toward your hand to make the slide go out, and push away to draw it back ion, and you need a self-centering device that allows you to lock the lever with the slide where you want it when you tune. If you don't then it will not return and you will have to have the lever strapped to your hand so you can 0ush and pull it and also return it each time, and doing that accurately is a major PITA. Even with my very simple rod on my CC I quickly became "lost" in getting the slide back to "home" after a challenging excerpt. It seems like it would be easy to do, but it isn't. That is why I removed it and learned to play the horn correctly, by adjusting things at the source and becoming adept at movning my left hand around to whetever it needed to be, adopting alternates as needed, and learning to lip more accurately then I had ever had to do in the past on other tubas.
Here is a hint that really helped me master my 163: Play it like a three-vlved trumpet. Use 4th with 24 only, use 13 and 1st slide for 4. Get your 1st slide very accuratly aligned — all four tubes must be nearly perfectly aligned. Then have it lapped so that is moves like a trombone hand slide. You will want a stop rod or a leash on it then so it does not fall out when you put the horn on its bell. Also, to move it very fast and accurately, you need to have 1st vented by someone who is experienced with venting rotary valves.
Good luck!