Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
- bort
- 6 valves
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- Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
Yessir, those Miraphone 5th valve parts came from me. I bought them through Horn Guys about... yikes... 7 or 8 years ago, and paid around $200 for the parts. I never got around to installing them on my old 188. AFAIK, it's just solid nickel silver, no finish. Glad you are finally able to use them!
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- 4 valves
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- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
These restoration threads are the #1 reason why I read TubeNet! Thank you Elephant for posting your pictures and text as you tackle these epic projects. I was glad to read the note about the Holton 345 as well. Keep up the great work and keep this thread going!
1930 King "Symphony" Recording Bass BBb
1916 Holton "Mammoth" Upright Bass BBb
1994 King 2341 Upright Bass BBb
Wedge H2 Solo mouthpieces
Stofer-Geib mouthpieces
1916 Holton "Mammoth" Upright Bass BBb
1994 King 2341 Upright Bass BBb
Wedge H2 Solo mouthpieces
Stofer-Geib mouthpieces
- oedipoes
- 4 valves
- Posts: 765
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:47 pm
- Location: Belgium
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
I think you will like the T-bar 5th... that's the one I have on my Norwegian Star.the elephant wrote: I am not familiar with the Mirafone levers that are a horizontal bar.
It gives more freedom on how you orient your thumb through the thumb ring, as the T-bar is much longer than the width of a traditional 5th paddle.
My 2 Eurocent for what it's worth...
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- 5 valves
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- Location: One toke over the line...
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
So was the dog making a statement about Mirafones or tubas in general?
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- 4 valves
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- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
It does not even look like the same horn! Terrific work as usual with your fine attention to detail. Keep this thread humming!
1930 King "Symphony" Recording Bass BBb
1916 Holton "Mammoth" Upright Bass BBb
1994 King 2341 Upright Bass BBb
Wedge H2 Solo mouthpieces
Stofer-Geib mouthpieces
1916 Holton "Mammoth" Upright Bass BBb
1994 King 2341 Upright Bass BBb
Wedge H2 Solo mouthpieces
Stofer-Geib mouthpieces
- bort
- 6 valves
- Posts: 11223
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
Hey Wade -- my bottom bow looks like this, from magnetic de-denting. How did you get this to look better? (Sorry, I got a little lost at that point, maybe I missed something obvious)the elephant wrote:Top bow after magnetic de-denting. I did not tart this up any by polishing it, so the surface looks like garbage, but it is now very well shaped in this spot.
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- 5 valves
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
Wade, I find this most interesting - I have a 186 which I should be putting together.
There might be a couple ways to add a 5th valve: either cut the lead pipe if it has enough straight tubing or, maybe after the valve block - harder.
My thinking is that the 4th valve circuit can be routed so that one side goes over the 1,2,3, tubing and the other goes below the 4th valve then straight up. When it gets to the top there is enough tubing required that if you double wrap you can have a 4th valve slide with enough pull to tune all of the bottom end and make a 4 valve horn fully chromatic. I THINK there is more than enough room for the branch to run under the valve linkages. I'd be interested in a measurement!!! I'm considering buying a full linkage bridge from Miraphone but need that measurement to make a decision.
I suggest you leave that 186CC as a 4v and find other solutions than adding a 5th valve.
Ages ago I had a MW 32CC 5V which, when I removed the 5th valve and did a couple tweeks, was very good.
Good luck with whatever you do. I'll be looking on with great interest.
There might be a couple ways to add a 5th valve: either cut the lead pipe if it has enough straight tubing or, maybe after the valve block - harder.
My thinking is that the 4th valve circuit can be routed so that one side goes over the 1,2,3, tubing and the other goes below the 4th valve then straight up. When it gets to the top there is enough tubing required that if you double wrap you can have a 4th valve slide with enough pull to tune all of the bottom end and make a 4 valve horn fully chromatic. I THINK there is more than enough room for the branch to run under the valve linkages. I'd be interested in a measurement!!! I'm considering buying a full linkage bridge from Miraphone but need that measurement to make a decision.
I suggest you leave that 186CC as a 4v and find other solutions than adding a 5th valve.
Ages ago I had a MW 32CC 5V which, when I removed the 5th valve and did a couple tweeks, was very good.
Good luck with whatever you do. I'll be looking on with great interest.
Free to tuba: good home
- bort
- 6 valves
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- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
Ken, is that the "box o parts" 186 that sold here at least 10 years ago? If so, I always wondered what happened to that tuba!
- bort
- 6 valves
- Posts: 11223
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
Thanks, Wade. When I finally get my tuba back, I'll work on that at some point. My tuba is mostly raw brass, and although most of the patina looks good, a few spots need some help. Thanks!
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- 5 valves
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
That's the one. 7 years ago.bort wrote:Ken, is that the "box o parts" 186 that sold here at least 10 years ago? If so, I always wondered what happened to that tuba!
I knew it needed some parts, including the full 4th valve circuit. Problem has been that when I bought it I expected to be moving to where I would have a machine shop to make parts and tooling. Didn't happen and I've always been hesitant to just "put it together" - I want it done well.
I'm getting to the point where I need to either do it or sell it. Age is catching up!
EDIT: The trip meter clicks over again tomorrow and with my fake knee type legs generally giving me hell, I am seriously thinking it would be best to let somebody who is equipped to take this on get a fine example for a very reasonable price. If interested make contact and it could probably be pretty easily worked out.
PM or kenshorse at gmail.com
Last edited by Ken Herrick on Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Free to tuba: good home
- The Big Ben
- 6 valves
- Posts: 3169
- Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:54 am
- Location: Port Townsend, WA
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
Surprised you could get a beer keg shoved down the gullet of your horn. Nice work!
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- lurker
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
Thank you for this tip! I've got an old detachable recording bell Miraphone that is bare brass. I've tried a few polishes but haven't found anything I think is satisfactory. I will be happy to give it a try.the elephant wrote:I use Simichrome polish. Wenol is nowhere near as good but is the closest substitute.
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- 5 valves
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
Why diapers instead of 100% cotton wash clothes? Isn't it hard to find non- synthetic blend diapers these days? Been awhile since I had to buy diapers.
- The Big Ben
- 6 valves
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- Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:54 am
- Location: Port Townsend, WA
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
I'm up here in the Pacific NW so I don't know if it translates to Mississippi but...
It is possible to buy a "Box O' Rags" here for about ten dollars and it is a 6x6x8 box jammed tight with torn up tee shirts. Not sure where they get the tee shirts but sometimes they have their brand labels still on them. I get them at a marine supply store here (i supposed because that is the big painting and varnishing industry here) but they should be available at paint stores. I wash them after using them and, with washing, the box lasts six to nine months for general wiping and cleaning.
(Dittos on the Simichrome. It's pretty expensive when you buy the small tubes at auto parts stores but in larger cans from Amazon, the price isn't bad.)
It is possible to buy a "Box O' Rags" here for about ten dollars and it is a 6x6x8 box jammed tight with torn up tee shirts. Not sure where they get the tee shirts but sometimes they have their brand labels still on them. I get them at a marine supply store here (i supposed because that is the big painting and varnishing industry here) but they should be available at paint stores. I wash them after using them and, with washing, the box lasts six to nine months for general wiping and cleaning.
(Dittos on the Simichrome. It's pretty expensive when you buy the small tubes at auto parts stores but in larger cans from Amazon, the price isn't bad.)
- pete edwards
- bugler
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:55 am
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
Wade, thanks for the detailed descriptions of your work and all the pics, I and others learn a lot from all this and we really appreciate your willingness to share.
One request, could you show a pic of the rotary valve bearing re-sizing tool and how it is used? particularly to correct the axial (horizontal) end-play.
I need to do this to my 35 year old bass bone valves & was thinking of making a tool to do it. I think I get it from the pic on the Ferees site but it would be cool to see it in "action"
One request, could you show a pic of the rotary valve bearing re-sizing tool and how it is used? particularly to correct the axial (horizontal) end-play.
I need to do this to my 35 year old bass bone valves & was thinking of making a tool to do it. I think I get it from the pic on the Ferees site but it would be cool to see it in "action"
- oedipoes
- 4 valves
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- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:47 pm
- Location: Belgium
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
Don't know if this is similar to what the Elephant is using, but such a tool can be seen in action in this video, starting at around 4:42 :pete edwards wrote: One request, could you show a pic of the rotary valve bearing re-sizing tool and how it is used? particularly to correct the axial (horizontal) end-play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKvqKepzv0c
I think the tool shown is from Böhm tools, item 313 from their catalogue:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
- pete edwards
- bugler
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
That's a really cool video- thanks!
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- 5 valves
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- pete edwards
- bugler
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:55 am
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
definitely oscar-worthy!
thank you for taking the time to educate us. you could be the AvE of the tuba world!
when the tool "squeezes" the bearing it does so in a 120 degree triangle- would it be beneficial to do it twice, rotating the tool 60 degrees so in effect you're squeezing in a hex pattern? or maybe it makes no difference? when you say the contact patch is 5mm, you mean lengthwise, right, not around the diameter of the stem?
I imagine this could be done (carefully) with a 5C collet in a lathe (with the valve detached from the horn of course)
my problem is mainly end-play. how do you address that?
sorry, so many questions
thank you for taking the time to educate us. you could be the AvE of the tuba world!
when the tool "squeezes" the bearing it does so in a 120 degree triangle- would it be beneficial to do it twice, rotating the tool 60 degrees so in effect you're squeezing in a hex pattern? or maybe it makes no difference? when you say the contact patch is 5mm, you mean lengthwise, right, not around the diameter of the stem?
I imagine this could be done (carefully) with a 5C collet in a lathe (with the valve detached from the horn of course)
my problem is mainly end-play. how do you address that?
sorry, so many questions
- pete edwards
- bugler
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:55 am
Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations
Yes i remember that well. I always think of those episodes & chuckle when experienced people start poo-pooing others starting out wanting to learn. They would freak out at some of the stuff I've done to expensive instruments (of my own- i never do any instrument work for anyone else)
I'm still a hack but I have been a machinist & engineer now for ~25 years so I haven't outright destroyed anything in quite a while.
I like the set screw idea, but I may try the shims first- McMaster-Carr sells brass shim washers down to .001" thk.
I'm still a hack but I have been a machinist & engineer now for ~25 years so I haven't outright destroyed anything in quite a while.
I like the set screw idea, but I may try the shims first- McMaster-Carr sells brass shim washers down to .001" thk.