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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:18 pm
by bort
Yessir, those Miraphone 5th valve parts came from me. I bought them through Horn Guys about... yikes... 7 or 8 years ago, and paid around $200 for the parts. I never got around to installing them on my old 188. AFAIK, it's just solid nickel silver, no finish. Glad you are finally able to use them!

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:28 pm
by roughrider
These restoration threads are the #1 reason why I read TubeNet! Thank you Elephant for posting your pictures and text as you tackle these epic projects. I was glad to read the note about the Holton 345 as well. Keep up the great work and keep this thread going!

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:02 am
by oedipoes
the elephant wrote: I am not familiar with the Mirafone levers that are a horizontal bar.


I think you will like the T-bar 5th... that's the one I have on my Norwegian Star.
It gives more freedom on how you orient your thumb through the thumb ring, as the T-bar is much longer than the width of a traditional 5th paddle.

My 2 Eurocent for what it's worth...

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:42 am
by tofu
So was the dog making a statement about Mirafones or tubas in general?

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:24 pm
by roughrider
It does not even look like the same horn! Terrific work as usual with your fine attention to detail. Keep this thread humming!

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:40 am
by bort
the elephant wrote:Top bow after magnetic de-denting. I did not tart this up any by polishing it, so the surface looks like garbage, but it is now very well shaped in this spot.
Image


Hey Wade -- my bottom bow looks like this, from magnetic de-denting. How did you get this to look better? (Sorry, I got a little lost at that point, maybe I missed something obvious)

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:42 am
by Ken Herrick
Wade, I find this most interesting - I have a 186 which I should be putting together.

There might be a couple ways to add a 5th valve: either cut the lead pipe if it has enough straight tubing or, maybe after the valve block - harder.


My thinking is that the 4th valve circuit can be routed so that one side goes over the 1,2,3, tubing and the other goes below the 4th valve then straight up. When it gets to the top there is enough tubing required that if you double wrap you can have a 4th valve slide with enough pull to tune all of the bottom end and make a 4 valve horn fully chromatic. I THINK there is more than enough room for the branch to run under the valve linkages. I'd be interested in a measurement!!! I'm considering buying a full linkage bridge from Miraphone but need that measurement to make a decision.

I suggest you leave that 186CC as a 4v and find other solutions than adding a 5th valve.


Ages ago I had a MW 32CC 5V which, when I removed the 5th valve and did a couple tweeks, was very good.

Good luck with whatever you do. I'll be looking on with great interest.

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:38 am
by bort
Ken, is that the "box o parts" 186 that sold here at least 10 years ago? If so, I always wondered what happened to that tuba!

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:12 pm
by bort
Thanks, Wade. When I finally get my tuba back, I'll work on that at some point. My tuba is mostly raw brass, and although most of the patina looks good, a few spots need some help. Thanks!

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:24 pm
by Ken Herrick
bort wrote:Ken, is that the "box o parts" 186 that sold here at least 10 years ago? If so, I always wondered what happened to that tuba!


That's the one. 7 years ago.

I knew it needed some parts, including the full 4th valve circuit. Problem has been that when I bought it I expected to be moving to where I would have a machine shop to make parts and tooling. Didn't happen and I've always been hesitant to just "put it together" - I want it done well.

I'm getting to the point where I need to either do it or sell it. Age is catching up!

EDIT: The trip meter clicks over again tomorrow and with my fake knee type legs generally giving me hell, I am seriously thinking it would be best to let somebody who is equipped to take this on get a fine example for a very reasonable price. If interested make contact and it could probably be pretty easily worked out.

PM or kenshorse at gmail.com

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:42 pm
by The Big Ben
Surprised you could get a beer keg shoved down the gullet of your horn. Nice work!

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:24 pm
by tubasoldier
the elephant wrote:I use Simichrome polish. Wenol is nowhere near as good but is the closest substitute.


Thank you for this tip! I've got an old detachable recording bell Miraphone that is bare brass. I've tried a few polishes but haven't found anything I think is satisfactory. I will be happy to give it a try.

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:03 am
by tofu
Why diapers instead of 100% cotton wash clothes? Isn't it hard to find non- synthetic blend diapers these days? Been awhile since I had to buy diapers. :wink:

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:04 pm
by The Big Ben
I'm up here in the Pacific NW so I don't know if it translates to Mississippi but...

It is possible to buy a "Box O' Rags" here for about ten dollars and it is a 6x6x8 box jammed tight with torn up tee shirts. Not sure where they get the tee shirts but sometimes they have their brand labels still on them. I get them at a marine supply store here (i supposed because that is the big painting and varnishing industry here) but they should be available at paint stores. I wash them after using them and, with washing, the box lasts six to nine months for general wiping and cleaning.

(Dittos on the Simichrome. It's pretty expensive when you buy the small tubes at auto parts stores but in larger cans from Amazon, the price isn't bad.)

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:45 am
by pete edwards
Wade, thanks for the detailed descriptions of your work and all the pics, I and others learn a lot from all this and we really appreciate your willingness to share.
One request, could you show a pic of the rotary valve bearing re-sizing tool and how it is used? particularly to correct the axial (horizontal) end-play.
I need to do this to my 35 year old bass bone valves & was thinking of making a tool to do it. I think I get it from the pic on the Ferees site but it would be cool to see it in "action"

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:16 am
by oedipoes
pete edwards wrote:One request, could you show a pic of the rotary valve bearing re-sizing tool and how it is used? particularly to correct the axial (horizontal) end-play.


Don't know if this is similar to what the Elephant is using, but such a tool can be seen in action in this video, starting at around 4:42 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKvqKepzv0c

I think the tool shown is from Böhm tools, item 313 from their catalogue:

Böhm 313.jpg

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:40 am
by pete edwards
That's a really cool video- thanks!

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:44 am
by Ken Herrick
Good stuff!!

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:59 am
by pete edwards
definitely oscar-worthy!
thank you for taking the time to educate us. you could be the AvE of the tuba world!
when the tool "squeezes" the bearing it does so in a 120 degree triangle- would it be beneficial to do it twice, rotating the tool 60 degrees so in effect you're squeezing in a hex pattern? or maybe it makes no difference? when you say the contact patch is 5mm, you mean lengthwise, right, not around the diameter of the stem?
I imagine this could be done (carefully) with a 5C collet in a lathe (with the valve detached from the horn of course)
my problem is mainly end-play. how do you address that?

sorry, so many questions

Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:01 am
by pete edwards
Yes i remember that well. I always think of those episodes & chuckle when experienced people start poo-pooing others starting out wanting to learn. They would freak out at some of the stuff I've done to expensive instruments (of my own- i never do any instrument work for anyone else)
I'm still a hack but I have been a machinist & engineer now for ~25 years so I haven't outright destroyed anything in quite a while.
I like the set screw idea, but I may try the shims first- McMaster-Carr sells brass shim washers down to .001" thk.