Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:22 pm
word.
Page 1 of 2
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:04 pm
Communication is the key to successful sales. I think maybe it's being a little harsh on those who are asking for a lower price... afterall, it's NO convenience to the buyer to pay more money, and is ALL the convenience of getting money from the buyer. However, I do agree, in requesting lower prices, politeness is good. Communicating immediately upon deciding not to buy something is also a good thing. If someone holds something for you over a week and you haven't made up your mind, it might be best for you just to pass.
Buyers
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:36 pm
From the world of real estate:
"Buyers are liars."
It's rare that buyers:
1) know what they want;
2) are able to afford what they think they can afford;
3) understand the market in which they want to buy; and
4) buy something that bears any resemblance to that which they said they wanted the first time out.
And it's exceedingly more common these days that whatever the price is on a home, be it overpriced or ridiculously underpriced, the offers that come in are going to be insultingly low.
My local market?
Average home: about $465,000
Bottom of the market: very few homes (less than 1%) under $300,000
Brand new construction: gonna run you $1 million, on average.
I have a listing that's $1.7 m (about 8000+ sq. ft.). My clients refused an offer earlier this year because the offer was so low it was into six figures below what it cost them to build it and the buyers refused to come up.
It's a strange mentality, offering somebody less money than they have into something, but it isn't limited to the tuba market.
"Buyers are liars."
It's rare that buyers:
1) know what they want;
2) are able to afford what they think they can afford;
3) understand the market in which they want to buy; and
4) buy something that bears any resemblance to that which they said they wanted the first time out.
And it's exceedingly more common these days that whatever the price is on a home, be it overpriced or ridiculously underpriced, the offers that come in are going to be insultingly low.
My local market?
Average home: about $465,000
Bottom of the market: very few homes (less than 1%) under $300,000
Brand new construction: gonna run you $1 million, on average.
I have a listing that's $1.7 m (about 8000+ sq. ft.). My clients refused an offer earlier this year because the offer was so low it was into six figures below what it cost them to build it and the buyers refused to come up.
It's a strange mentality, offering somebody less money than they have into something, but it isn't limited to the tuba market.
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:11 am
รงยตScooby Tuba wrote:Translation, please!smurphius wrote:afterall, it's NO convenience to the buyer to pay more money, and is ALL the convenience of getting money from the buyer.
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:18 am
LOL! 
Basically, I'm saying that being the buyer, putting money out for something is a loss of money in exchange for a good. As a seller, he sells a good and recieves money which he can then use for whatever he wishes. In most of our cases, the buyer is stuck with a tuba, leaving you few options to do with it other than play it or make a flower pot out of it. The seller can do any number of things with his new stash, making it more convenient? (for lack of better word) for him than the seller.
It's an issue of functionality?
I'm thinking awfully hard tonight.
Basically, I'm saying that being the buyer, putting money out for something is a loss of money in exchange for a good. As a seller, he sells a good and recieves money which he can then use for whatever he wishes. In most of our cases, the buyer is stuck with a tuba, leaving you few options to do with it other than play it or make a flower pot out of it. The seller can do any number of things with his new stash, making it more convenient? (for lack of better word) for him than the seller.
It's an issue of functionality?
I'm thinking awfully hard tonight.
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:58 am
The buyers may not be so out of it. Around here values have been going up 15-20% per year and many sellers are still pricing for that kind of increase while the market has probably actually gone down 10% in the last year. We've been looking to switch houses and I've been amused at how many sellers are "insulted" by being offered $800K for a property they bought five years ago for $450K just because they've gotten it into their heads that it "ought" to be worth $1.2M, comparables to the contrary. Several such properties are sitting empty a year later, some eventually sold for even less.I have a listing that's $1.7 m (about 8000+ sq. ft.). My clients refused an offer earlier this year because the offer was so low it was into six figures below what it cost them to build it and the buyers refused to come up.
Fortunately the market seems to sort this all out in the long run--things are only worth what a buyer is willing to pay and a seller is willing to take at the point of transaction.
Which reminds me, at some point I need to sell the tuba I payed way too much money for. Anyone need a very expensive, pretty beat up horn?
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:08 pm
The most annoying thing to ME is people selling "like new" mouthpieces with out of round shanks and nicks on the rim and such and blatantly lying about it.
"must have happened in shipping", "I didn't see that", ... whatever.
The one (very rare) horn I advertised here got lots of goobers offering 75% of asking price. Asking price was fair. I said no.
Of course my tuba sold for asking price and the goobers missed out.
I have no problem negotiating the price of a tuba or a car (lotsa fun!) but silly low offers are nuts and often insulting.
"must have happened in shipping", "I didn't see that", ... whatever.
The one (very rare) horn I advertised here got lots of goobers offering 75% of asking price. Asking price was fair. I said no.
Of course my tuba sold for asking price and the goobers missed out.
I have no problem negotiating the price of a tuba or a car (lotsa fun!) but silly low offers are nuts and often insulting.
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:16 pm
You know the old axiom:
Beware Buyers!
Beware Buyers!
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:29 pm
It can be summed up as one phrase:
A buyer should have as much responsibility as the seller.
Yes, Wal-Mart may have made a fortune on the backs of buyers who fall into one of the categories listed above, but for the rest of us, the phrase can be executed in two lines:
1) Caveat Emptor is still the primary point of departure, and
2) Research the market before entering it.
"Buyer's remorse," 99% of the time, is simply the inevitable corollary to insufficient research, whether on-line, in a library, or hands-on trials. When I have done my homework, the only times I have experienced buyer's remorse is when something came up so off the wall that no reasonable person could have forseen it, whether a new model introduced too soon after purchase, unforseen change in circumstances regarding application, etc. Buyer's remorse is most prevalent when a person lets his or her emotions part with their money.
To further the buyer's rant: I am lucky enough to have a semi-collectible convertible, a 1967 Jaguar E-type. It's in great shape, but we all know that such cars have "personality" to put it lightly. On occasion when I'm in the front yard mowing or such, with the garage door open, I occasionally get somebody in a late model BMW/Lexus/Infiniti/etc stop and ask if it is for sale. They seem absolutely insulted when I politely say no, even though they are entering my property and interrupting what I'm doing to ask such. Fortunately, most then say thank you and simply leave. Those that press the issue, I look them straight in the eye and say that it's not just another toy. It requires maintenance. You will either have to spend significant funds keeping it tuned up or do it yourself, and from the looks of you, you don't know your carburettor from your exhaust manifold. Please leave. That usually does it.
A buyer should have as much responsibility as the seller.
Yes, Wal-Mart may have made a fortune on the backs of buyers who fall into one of the categories listed above, but for the rest of us, the phrase can be executed in two lines:
1) Caveat Emptor is still the primary point of departure, and
2) Research the market before entering it.
"Buyer's remorse," 99% of the time, is simply the inevitable corollary to insufficient research, whether on-line, in a library, or hands-on trials. When I have done my homework, the only times I have experienced buyer's remorse is when something came up so off the wall that no reasonable person could have forseen it, whether a new model introduced too soon after purchase, unforseen change in circumstances regarding application, etc. Buyer's remorse is most prevalent when a person lets his or her emotions part with their money.
To further the buyer's rant: I am lucky enough to have a semi-collectible convertible, a 1967 Jaguar E-type. It's in great shape, but we all know that such cars have "personality" to put it lightly. On occasion when I'm in the front yard mowing or such, with the garage door open, I occasionally get somebody in a late model BMW/Lexus/Infiniti/etc stop and ask if it is for sale. They seem absolutely insulted when I politely say no, even though they are entering my property and interrupting what I'm doing to ask such. Fortunately, most then say thank you and simply leave. Those that press the issue, I look them straight in the eye and say that it's not just another toy. It requires maintenance. You will either have to spend significant funds keeping it tuned up or do it yourself, and from the looks of you, you don't know your carburettor from your exhaust manifold. Please leave. That usually does it.
Re: Buyers
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:35 pm
Strange mentality, eh?Mitch wrote:It's a strange mentality, offering somebody less money than they have into something, but it isn't limited to the tuba market.
I have a 7 year-old Compaq computer sitting in the closet. It works perfectly, and looks like new! When it WAS new, I paid around $600 for it. So, by your reasoning I should get my $600 back if I sell it, right? No? Ok then, should I get half of what I have into it? WHAT?! You wouldn't pay $300 for a computer that someone has used for a few years, even though it's in like-new condition? But I have $600 into it! Sheesh, what's wrong with you? You sure have a strange mentality!
My point is that just because something has been taken care of, and still works well, it isn't necessarily worth what YOU paid for it. It's been USED. People need to realize that.
And if they don't, I'd also gladly sell them the pair of boxer shorts I've only worn once...for the same price I paid for them, of course.
Re: Buyers
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:19 pm
What size?Tubaguyry wrote:...I'd also gladly sell them the pair of boxer shorts I've only worn once...for the same price I paid for them, of course.
Ralph
Re: Buyers
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:30 pm
You KNOW you are required to have pics:TexTuba wrote:What size?Tubaguyry wrote:...I'd also gladly sell them the pair of boxer shorts I've only worn once...for the same price I paid for them, of course.
Ralph
Clarification
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:08 am
I'd like to provide an illustration to perhaps more clearly communicate the intention of my earlier post, considering that it's been misinterpreted twice.
The situation to which I referred ($1.7 million home, super lowball offer, seller refusal of the offer) takes into account "fair market value."
At $1.7m, the home is actually a priced well. In this market are numerous competing homes in the same price bracket (1.6m to 1.8m). Without exception, they are all at least 2,000 square feet smaller. Without exception, they are on smaller lots. The house has a Master Suite that far exceeds the amenities of the competition. Yada, yada, yada. For the price bracket, it offers more than the competition. It's a brand new home, 90% complete.
The upshot of it is that the builder (my client) has an accountable cost of production. They are not a 501(c)3, so of course they'd like to make at least a little money on it. So if someone comes along and offers less money than covers the cost of production, of course they're going to turn it out.
If someone has an HB50 for sale, it's justifiable to say "fair market value" is over $10,000. Let's look at those recently available. Two at Baltimore Brass listed at $15,500. One on this forum for $12,000. To be competitive, it's arguable to price one in between $12k and $15k. To get it sold fast, a price of $9,000 would probably accomplish that (and we're assuming comparable very good similar condition for all these horns). So if a seller has a pristine condition HB50 for sale at $8500 and somebody says, "I'll give you $3500 for it," the seller is justified in offering the buyer several options of where the buyer can put the offer, none of them involving sun light.
When someone makes a ridiculous offer, it comes down to only a few possibilities:
1) Forrest Gump - "Momma always said you never know unless you ask;"
2) College kid/student - broke, wants an HB50, desperate;
but, unfortunately, more commonly:
3) completely uneducated with regard to horns and the fair market value of an HB50;
4) simply obnoxious.
Yes, rwiegand, I'm fully well aware that any object is ultimately worth only what someone will pay for it. That's what I do. I spend my days communicating that to my clients and educating them to market conditions. But buyers are completely out of it when they've failed to due their due diligence, when they've failed to educate themselves about where fair market value is (and, of course, that goes for sellers, too).
As for tubaguyry, again, you've failed to take into account fair market value. Obviously, a seven-year-old computer isn't worth the plastic that's in it. And that's "fair market value." No one in the market place is paying anything for 7-yr-old computers. The marketplace doesn't support the sale of out-of-date technology.
By "what they've got into it" I mean:
If the owner has taken care of the "object" (whatever it is), has maintained it, has performed any necessary changes/upgrades/replacements, has provided necessary protection (i.e., a fully functioning case), they have a reasonable, justifiable expectation of receiving fair market value for the object.
If you're selling an HB50 for which the silver plate is still perfect, the valves are perfect, the slides move perfectly, doesn't have a single dent, and you're providing the original hard case (in outstanding condition), a leather gig bag (vintage Reunion Blues, black, all zippers in perfect working order), and a custom watertight flight case (Anvil, all locks, seals, wheels, etc., in perfect working order) then a price of $15,500 is more than justified and supported by market conditions.
If your HB50 is raw brass across the front of the bell and the bottom bow, the valves are pitted and scratched from neglect/abuse, the 3rd, 4th, and 5th valve slides are all stuck, it's dented all over the top and bottom bows and the lead pipe and the slides (which is probably why they're stuck), the receiver's separating from the lead pipe, the threads are stripped on the top cap of the first valve so it's being held in place with duct tape, and the only case you're including is a beat up no name bag that doesn't fit right and the zipper's busted, then you're way off the mark if you think you can ask $15,500 for it. It's not justified by market conditions. It doesn't compare at all to the first scenario and other HB50s available at that price.
The seller of horn A has probably checked the market to see at what price HB50s are listed, and at what price they're selling. One of the HB50s at BaltBrass is on hold. It's not sold yet, but someone is interested. That communicates that a used HB50 may very well sell at $15,500. So if someone has an HB50 in perfect condition with all the extra gear, it's reasonable to expect that his/her horn may sell at the same price, especially with three cases included.
The seller of horn B is uneducated, has failed to check the market and make reasonable adjustments to his/her price.
It falls on buyers and sellers to perform due diligence before entering the marketplace, educating themselves to market conditions and reasonable limits. I invite everyone selling a horn here to be consistently diligent about posting when the horn has sold. If done consistently, this forum could offer potential buyers and sellers the ability to enter the marketplace with a more informed reasonable expectation of price.
If someone were thinking, "I'm thinking about buying a used PT-6; I wonder what they're going for?" If they could look up all the listings for used PT-6s and find out that they've all sold (via this forum) between $7,000 and $8000, they'll know that of the (let's say) two available, the one listed at $6500 is possibly a very good buy and the one listed at $10,000 may not be so much. And the potential seller of a Cerveny Piggy could look through the listings and see that maybe he/she probably shouldn't list it, no matter how great it is, above $8,000.
To get back to the original post to this thread, the only solution to the issue addressed is for all buyers and sellers to be responsible, educated and mature. Oh well.
The situation to which I referred ($1.7 million home, super lowball offer, seller refusal of the offer) takes into account "fair market value."
At $1.7m, the home is actually a priced well. In this market are numerous competing homes in the same price bracket (1.6m to 1.8m). Without exception, they are all at least 2,000 square feet smaller. Without exception, they are on smaller lots. The house has a Master Suite that far exceeds the amenities of the competition. Yada, yada, yada. For the price bracket, it offers more than the competition. It's a brand new home, 90% complete.
The upshot of it is that the builder (my client) has an accountable cost of production. They are not a 501(c)3, so of course they'd like to make at least a little money on it. So if someone comes along and offers less money than covers the cost of production, of course they're going to turn it out.
If someone has an HB50 for sale, it's justifiable to say "fair market value" is over $10,000. Let's look at those recently available. Two at Baltimore Brass listed at $15,500. One on this forum for $12,000. To be competitive, it's arguable to price one in between $12k and $15k. To get it sold fast, a price of $9,000 would probably accomplish that (and we're assuming comparable very good similar condition for all these horns). So if a seller has a pristine condition HB50 for sale at $8500 and somebody says, "I'll give you $3500 for it," the seller is justified in offering the buyer several options of where the buyer can put the offer, none of them involving sun light.
When someone makes a ridiculous offer, it comes down to only a few possibilities:
1) Forrest Gump - "Momma always said you never know unless you ask;"
2) College kid/student - broke, wants an HB50, desperate;
but, unfortunately, more commonly:
3) completely uneducated with regard to horns and the fair market value of an HB50;
4) simply obnoxious.
Yes, rwiegand, I'm fully well aware that any object is ultimately worth only what someone will pay for it. That's what I do. I spend my days communicating that to my clients and educating them to market conditions. But buyers are completely out of it when they've failed to due their due diligence, when they've failed to educate themselves about where fair market value is (and, of course, that goes for sellers, too).
As for tubaguyry, again, you've failed to take into account fair market value. Obviously, a seven-year-old computer isn't worth the plastic that's in it. And that's "fair market value." No one in the market place is paying anything for 7-yr-old computers. The marketplace doesn't support the sale of out-of-date technology.
By "what they've got into it" I mean:
If the owner has taken care of the "object" (whatever it is), has maintained it, has performed any necessary changes/upgrades/replacements, has provided necessary protection (i.e., a fully functioning case), they have a reasonable, justifiable expectation of receiving fair market value for the object.
If you're selling an HB50 for which the silver plate is still perfect, the valves are perfect, the slides move perfectly, doesn't have a single dent, and you're providing the original hard case (in outstanding condition), a leather gig bag (vintage Reunion Blues, black, all zippers in perfect working order), and a custom watertight flight case (Anvil, all locks, seals, wheels, etc., in perfect working order) then a price of $15,500 is more than justified and supported by market conditions.
If your HB50 is raw brass across the front of the bell and the bottom bow, the valves are pitted and scratched from neglect/abuse, the 3rd, 4th, and 5th valve slides are all stuck, it's dented all over the top and bottom bows and the lead pipe and the slides (which is probably why they're stuck), the receiver's separating from the lead pipe, the threads are stripped on the top cap of the first valve so it's being held in place with duct tape, and the only case you're including is a beat up no name bag that doesn't fit right and the zipper's busted, then you're way off the mark if you think you can ask $15,500 for it. It's not justified by market conditions. It doesn't compare at all to the first scenario and other HB50s available at that price.
The seller of horn A has probably checked the market to see at what price HB50s are listed, and at what price they're selling. One of the HB50s at BaltBrass is on hold. It's not sold yet, but someone is interested. That communicates that a used HB50 may very well sell at $15,500. So if someone has an HB50 in perfect condition with all the extra gear, it's reasonable to expect that his/her horn may sell at the same price, especially with three cases included.
The seller of horn B is uneducated, has failed to check the market and make reasonable adjustments to his/her price.
It falls on buyers and sellers to perform due diligence before entering the marketplace, educating themselves to market conditions and reasonable limits. I invite everyone selling a horn here to be consistently diligent about posting when the horn has sold. If done consistently, this forum could offer potential buyers and sellers the ability to enter the marketplace with a more informed reasonable expectation of price.
If someone were thinking, "I'm thinking about buying a used PT-6; I wonder what they're going for?" If they could look up all the listings for used PT-6s and find out that they've all sold (via this forum) between $7,000 and $8000, they'll know that of the (let's say) two available, the one listed at $6500 is possibly a very good buy and the one listed at $10,000 may not be so much. And the potential seller of a Cerveny Piggy could look through the listings and see that maybe he/she probably shouldn't list it, no matter how great it is, above $8,000.
To get back to the original post to this thread, the only solution to the issue addressed is for all buyers and sellers to be responsible, educated and mature. Oh well.
Re: Clarification
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:19 pm
Oh no - there goes the "For Sale" forum, as these requirements eliminate practically all tuba players!Mitch wrote:To get back to the original post to this thread, the only solution to the issue addressed is for all buyers and sellers to be responsible, educated and mature.
How about, if someone offers you $2400 for your ultra-sparkly HB50, you are hereby authorized to say to that person "Don't be a dope!" Wouldn't that be more effective and satisfactory, than to berate the world at large in the hopes of reaching a bunch of people who by your own account probably aren't really paying attention?
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:35 pm
How about, if someone offers you $2400 for your ultra-sparkly HB50, you are hereby authorized to not even dignify the offer with a response and waste your time and effort. Let them figure out "Don't be a dope!" and find that well-known auction site on their own time! 
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:39 pm
Words to live by!How about, if someone offers you $2400 for your ultra-sparkly HB50, you are hereby authorized to say to that person "Don't be a dope!" Wouldn't that be more effective and satisfactory, than to berate the world at large in the hopes of reaching a bunch of people who by your own account probably aren't really paying attention?
Re: Clarification
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:41 pm
Never explain. Your friends don't need it, you enemies won't believe you anyway.Mitch wrote:I'd like to provide an illustration....
Yeah, I know...follow my own advice....
Re: Clarification
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:54 pm
Tubaguyry wrote:...I'd also gladly sell them the pair of boxer shorts I've only worn once...
Mitch wrote:I'd like to provide an illustration....
MartyNeilan wrote:
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:57 am
ok, counter-rant.
I've just plain given up on having tubas shipped to me for play-testing, because the sellers aren't even kindergarten graduates when it comes to packing up a tuba. The last one...came loosely floating in a box with a few peanuts, with a bunch of loose cardboard "filling in" the top of the box. Damaged, you say? What!? How could UPS/DHL/Whoever be so rough on my dear tuba? The bell is crinkled? Bottom bow have a big dent in it? How COULD they?
MA
I've just plain given up on having tubas shipped to me for play-testing, because the sellers aren't even kindergarten graduates when it comes to packing up a tuba. The last one...came loosely floating in a box with a few peanuts, with a bunch of loose cardboard "filling in" the top of the box. Damaged, you say? What!? How could UPS/DHL/Whoever be so rough on my dear tuba? The bell is crinkled? Bottom bow have a big dent in it? How COULD they?
MA
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:52 pm
As a seller, my burden is to be courteus and polite. No one likes an abusive seller and that alone will chase business away.
So, when someone makes me a ridiculous offer, I try to be as polite as I can in saying "Sorry, that's way outside of the range that I'll consider. However, I might be willing to consider something in the range of (my original asking price)." On the other hand, when I say, "or best offer", I usually mean it.
Looking at the topic from the side of the buyer, there's no harm in asking and perhaps getting a bargain is there?
Sometimes, I'll even try to bargain with local merchants if I know they've got something that isn't moving that I can use. Often, the final sales price is half of what the asking price is. My dad used to bargain for almost everything, from groceries to TV sets.
There's no room for thin skin in business dealings. If you don't like the nasty business of business, sell your instrument on consignment wtih someone who doesn't mind dickering.
So, when someone makes me a ridiculous offer, I try to be as polite as I can in saying "Sorry, that's way outside of the range that I'll consider. However, I might be willing to consider something in the range of (my original asking price)." On the other hand, when I say, "or best offer", I usually mean it.
Looking at the topic from the side of the buyer, there's no harm in asking and perhaps getting a bargain is there?
Sometimes, I'll even try to bargain with local merchants if I know they've got something that isn't moving that I can use. Often, the final sales price is half of what the asking price is. My dad used to bargain for almost everything, from groceries to TV sets.
There's no room for thin skin in business dealings. If you don't like the nasty business of business, sell your instrument on consignment wtih someone who doesn't mind dickering.