Holton 345 Factory CC FS
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This forum is for buying or selling your personal equipment. Sponsored selling is allowed as well. All ads are required to have the following information: Price (even for trades), brand, model, and location (City and State, for instruments, not accessories). It is acceptable to link to an external ad if you are promoting a sale of your personal equipment. No Ebay auctions, but "Buy It Now" listings are fine. Photos are HIGHLY suggested as well, and may be hosted on Google Drive, or elsewhere. If you see an ad that does not meet these criteria, please report it.
- Matt G
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Seeing as this horn has a 5th valve that can be mounted in the fourth, I was wondering if this horn has an added history(???).
Per the story, the NYPO job was won (back in the late 70's/early 80's) on a horn with a fifth valve dependent on the fourth. That horn was a factory cut Holton also, I believe.
Even if not, I'm sure it is a good horn if Joe recommends it!
Per the story, the NYPO job was won (back in the late 70's/early 80's) on a horn with a fifth valve dependent on the fourth. That horn was a factory cut Holton also, I believe.
Even if not, I'm sure it is a good horn if Joe recommends it!
Dillon/Walters CC
Meinl Weston 2165
Meinl Weston 2165
- Rick Denney
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Just a quibble on the word choice, which I'm sure you didn't intend.Matthew Gilchrest wrote:...factory cut Holton also...
The Holton 345 was designed as a CC tuba, to provide Arnold Jacobs with an instrument as similar to his York as possible for when he played in the CSO Brass Quintet, which was sponsored by Holton. As I understand it, this was at the same time that Holton developed the Farkas-model horn. I have a Holton advertising picture of Jacobs holding one, shown below. Lore has it that he also was interested in big tubas being manufactured by someone so that he could have something to recommend to his students. While he clearly preferred the York over the Holton, a lot of his students indeed played Holtons, and still do.
Thus, I think the CC came first, with the BBb as an alternative means for Holton to market the instrument. In other words, I don't think the factory cut them. I don't think they were a modification of an existing BBb instrument, though they undoubtedly used parts from some of their previous instruments that were BBb's.
Rick "taking the opportunity to display the ad" Denney
- Matt G
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I would agree but....
I have a old Holton (sort of) 6/4 BBb that I bought off of Chuck(G). The horn was originally bell front but is no more. But, the valveset is a Holton Short Action set. From what Chuck has told me and what little info I could gather on my own, I am fairly certain that the large bows and branches were actually made by York.
I would guess that Holton either was smart and copied a lot of measurements from these branches to make them on their own later or bought the patterns from York later on.
When Ormandy and Donatelli ordered the York they were making those big 'ol BBb's. Both York CC's are more than likely derivative from these horns. This makes sense, since both Yorks are totally different in height.
I'm guessing that Holton could have found a few of those old York BBb's fairly easliy when they were sponsoring Mr. Jacobs. So they might have even followed the York approach?
Anywho, I am pretty sure that the Holton York copy seems to be made from the lesser of the two York CC's (the taller one). This one is much more similar in dimensions to a BBb then the other York that Nirscl and Yamaha have copied, which seems to be much shorter and squat. Because of this, the manufacturing differences between the BBb and CC may be less which would have made the operation a lot easier for Holton to make both types in order to sell a specialty horn (CC) and a big band tuba.
In the end, I shouldn't refer to the horn as factory cut any more than one should refer to a Mirafone 186CC "factory cut". It is mainly force of habit, since so many of the Holton CC's that exist are "cut" tubas.
I have a old Holton (sort of) 6/4 BBb that I bought off of Chuck(G). The horn was originally bell front but is no more. But, the valveset is a Holton Short Action set. From what Chuck has told me and what little info I could gather on my own, I am fairly certain that the large bows and branches were actually made by York.
I would guess that Holton either was smart and copied a lot of measurements from these branches to make them on their own later or bought the patterns from York later on.
When Ormandy and Donatelli ordered the York they were making those big 'ol BBb's. Both York CC's are more than likely derivative from these horns. This makes sense, since both Yorks are totally different in height.
I'm guessing that Holton could have found a few of those old York BBb's fairly easliy when they were sponsoring Mr. Jacobs. So they might have even followed the York approach?
Anywho, I am pretty sure that the Holton York copy seems to be made from the lesser of the two York CC's (the taller one). This one is much more similar in dimensions to a BBb then the other York that Nirscl and Yamaha have copied, which seems to be much shorter and squat. Because of this, the manufacturing differences between the BBb and CC may be less which would have made the operation a lot easier for Holton to make both types in order to sell a specialty horn (CC) and a big band tuba.
In the end, I shouldn't refer to the horn as factory cut any more than one should refer to a Mirafone 186CC "factory cut". It is mainly force of habit, since so many of the Holton CC's that exist are "cut" tubas.
Dillon/Walters CC
Meinl Weston 2165
Meinl Weston 2165
- Rick Denney
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I can answer that (not who, but what). Dave Fedderly took it apart, and used the various pieces to fill out a couple of BBb Holtons. The resulting BBb tubas were pretty good (I played both of them), and they apparently sold quickly to happy owners.TubaAS wrote:Joe, do you know who owns that Holton that you did? Just curious.
It was a shame to undo Joe's beautiful work, but it found new life for the parts for tubas that will get played a lot.
Rick "who still thinks he has the best of the BBb Holtons" Denney
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CC (the one for sale) vs. BBb (mine)
<img src="http://tinypic.com/xvh3o"><img src="http://www.rickdenney.com/scratch/Holton_BB-345.jpg" HEIGHT="330">
Rick "noting some interesting differences" Denney
<img src="http://tinypic.com/xvh3o"><img src="http://www.rickdenney.com/scratch/Holton_BB-345.jpg" HEIGHT="330">
Rick "noting some interesting differences" Denney
- MartyNeilan
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- TubaTodd
- 4 valves
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Rick Denney wrote:I can answer that (not who, but what). Dave Fedderly took it apart, and used the various pieces to fill out a couple of BBb Holtons. The resulting BBb tubas were pretty good (I played both of them), and they apparently sold quickly to happy owners.TubaAS wrote:Joe, do you know who owns that Holton that you did? Just curious.
It was a shame to undo Joe's beautiful work, but it found new life for the parts for tubas that will get played a lot.
Rick "who still thinks he has the best of the BBb Holtons" Denney
GASP!!! You mean to tell me that the BEAUTIFUL satin silver Holton was taken apart to be used on other horns???? I can't even fatham that. It would be like taking apart a beautiful cathedral and using the lumber for a brothel.
Todd Morgan
Conn 52J - Sidey SSH Classic - MF3H
Conn 52J - Sidey SSH Classic - MF3H
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So, BBb tubas (with manageable intonation) are equated to brothels and C tubas (with challenging intonation) are equated to cathedrals?TubaTodd wrote:GASP!!![/size] You mean to tell me that the BEAUTIFUL satin silver Holton was taken apart to be used on other horns???? I can't even fatham that. It would be like taking apart a beautiful cathedral and using the lumber for a brothel.
Ooooo-kaaaay.
Joe has already pointed out that the fat upper bow of the top-action BBb instrument that he used in his conversion the likely culprit in its intontion quirks. Of course, he was making an instrument for himself to use, considering what was available at the time and how much it cost (and whether those choices didn't also come with intonation challenges). There are better choices now, and that's why that particular reconstructed Holton was no longer competitive. But there was some fine craftsmanship (and I mean in the functional sense) on that tuba, and the good parts being used on other instruments is a worthy end to the experiment. Otherwise, it would languish in someone's collection, being looked at only.
Rick "who thinks the BBb price point has to be lower, but there is still a bigger market for good BBb 6/4 tubas" Denney
- TubaTodd
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That isn't even close to what I was trying to say. I was saying that the Satin Silver Holton looked like such a thing of beauty and quality craftsmanship that it would be a shame to take it apart for use as parts. One of my local friends who knows a little about that horn and what happened with the parts told me WHY it was used for parts.Rick Denney wrote:So, BBb tubas (with manageable intonation) are equated to brothels and C tubas (with challenging intonation) are equated to cathedrals?TubaTodd wrote:GASP!!![/size] You mean to tell me that the BEAUTIFUL satin silver Holton was taken apart to be used on other horns???? I can't even fatham that. It would be like taking apart a beautiful cathedral and using the lumber for a brothel.
Yes, I am a CC tuba player, but I don't have the sophomorish attitude that CC tubas are catherdrals and BBb tubas are brothels. I think we had a communication breakdown.
Todd Morgan
Conn 52J - Sidey SSH Classic - MF3H
Conn 52J - Sidey SSH Classic - MF3H
- Rick Denney
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- TubaTodd
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No harm done. My local friend said that he traded some parts to a well known tuba store and his parts were used in conjuction with parts from the satin silver one to make 2 fine BBbs. My friend has a Holton 345 BBb tuba "made" (assembled) by the same store and it sounds GREAT!!Rick Denney wrote:I know that--I was just twisting your tail. I shouldn't have followed it up with a serious paragraph, though.TubaTodd wrote:That isn't even close to what I was trying to say.
Rick "intending no offense" Denney
Todd Morgan
Conn 52J - Sidey SSH Classic - MF3H
Conn 52J - Sidey SSH Classic - MF3H
- Rick Denney
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I played both of those instruments a little bit, and indeed they sounded great, just like the best of the Holtons. But mine responds better than either. I'm scared to have the dents ironed out for fear of upsetting something important, even if it was accidental.TubaTodd wrote:My local friend said that he traded some parts to a well known tuba store and his parts were used in conjuction with parts from the satin silver one to make 2 fine BBbs. My friend has a Holton 345 BBb tuba "made" (assembled) by the same store and it sounds GREAT!!
Rick "contemplating having the bottom bow yanked to fix the big dents" Denney
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