Holton 345 Factory CC FS

Gravid · Post by **Gravid** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:54 pm

http://63.126.125.94/cgi-bin/classified ... =retrieval

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:39 am

bloke wrote:It's a magnificent instrument. This is an extremely rare and desirable instrument, and highly skilled folks often do about as many $$$$'s of dollars worth of work (or perhaps more) cutting a Holton BBb to make an imitation

<img src="http://tinypic.com/xvh3o">

This is indeed a great tuba. I had the opportunity to try it out last spring when I picked up a Rudy Meinl 5/4 CC from Mr. Graves. The sound is amazing and the intonation (when I played it) was very good. Someone will be getting a very special horn.

Again, this is a factory CC and plays great!

Mr. Graves is a great guy to deal with too, so anyone looking for a 6/4 should look into this horn. Don't buy a cut Holton until you try this tuba!

Gravid · Post by **Gravid** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:43 pm

would like to get something in the neighborhood of $8500, will consider offers. If you're seriously interested, drop me a line.

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:52 am

Bloke gets the creativity points on this one. At least that's my opinion.

Matt G · Post by **Matt G** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:16 am

Seeing as this horn has a 5th valve that can be mounted in the fourth, I was wondering if this horn has an added history(???).

Per the story, the NYPO job was won (back in the late 70's/early 80's) on a horn with a fifth valve dependent on the fourth. That horn was a factory cut Holton also, I believe.

Even if not, I'm sure it is a good horn if Joe recommends it!

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:50 am

I think Joe secretly has a Jones for this horn, and is hoping he's been good enough this year; maybe Santa will bring it.

Close Joe?

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:38 pm

Doc wrote:It's almost impossible not to have a Jones for this horn.

Agreed. I sorta wish those kinda BATs had a slightly wider bell though; gives that nice "aura" around everything.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:29 pm

Matthew Gilchrest wrote:...factory cut Holton also...

Just a quibble on the word choice, which I'm sure you didn't intend.

The Holton 345 was designed as a CC tuba, to provide Arnold Jacobs with an instrument as similar to his York as possible for when he played in the CSO Brass Quintet, which was sponsored by Holton. As I understand it, this was at the same time that Holton developed the Farkas-model horn. I have a Holton advertising picture of Jacobs holding one, shown below. Lore has it that he also was interested in big tubas being manufactured by someone so that he could have something to recommend to his students. While he clearly preferred the York over the Holton, a lot of his students indeed played Holtons, and still do.

Thus, I think the CC came first, with the BBb as an alternative means for Holton to market the instrument. In other words, I don't think the factory cut them. I don't think they were a modification of an existing BBb instrument, though they undoubtedly used parts from some of their previous instruments that were BBb's.

Rick "taking the opportunity to display the ad" Denney

Matt G · Post by **Matt G** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:12 pm

I would agree but....

I have a old Holton (sort of) 6/4 BBb that I bought off of Chuck(G). The horn was originally bell front but is no more. But, the valveset is a Holton Short Action set. From what Chuck has told me and what little info I could gather on my own, I am fairly certain that the large bows and branches were actually made by York.

I would guess that Holton either was smart and copied a lot of measurements from these branches to make them on their own later or bought the patterns from York later on.

When Ormandy and Donatelli ordered the York they were making those big 'ol BBb's. Both York CC's are more than likely derivative from these horns. This makes sense, since both Yorks are totally different in height.

I'm guessing that Holton could have found a few of those old York BBb's fairly easliy when they were sponsoring Mr. Jacobs. So they might have even followed the York approach?

Anywho, I am pretty sure that the Holton York copy seems to be made from the lesser of the two York CC's (the taller one). This one is much more similar in dimensions to a BBb then the other York that Nirscl and Yamaha have copied, which seems to be much shorter and squat. Because of this, the manufacturing differences between the BBb and CC may be less which would have made the operation a lot easier for Holton to make both types in order to sell a specialty horn (CC) and a big band tuba.

In the end, I shouldn't refer to the horn as factory cut any more than one should refer to a Mirafone 186CC "factory cut". It is mainly force of habit, since so many of the Holton CC's that exist are "cut" tubas.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:47 pm

TubaAS wrote:Joe, do you know who owns that Holton that you did? Just curious.

I can answer that (not who, but what). Dave Fedderly took it apart, and used the various pieces to fill out a couple of BBb Holtons. The resulting BBb tubas were pretty good (I played both of them), and they apparently sold quickly to happy owners.

It was a shame to undo Joe's beautiful work, but it found new life for the parts for tubas that will get played a lot.

Rick "who still thinks he has the best of the BBb Holtons" Denney

Gravid · Post by **Gravid** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:28 pm

atlo (decoded: bump)

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:18 am

CC (the one for sale) vs. BBb (mine)

<img src="http://tinypic.com/xvh3o"><img src="http://www.rickdenney.com/scratch/Holton_BB-345.jpg" HEIGHT="330">

Rick "noting some interesting differences" Denney

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:06 pm

harold wrote:but think that the reason it hasn't moved yet is that most CC players are interested in a fifth valve.

Check what the full ad on BassClefBrass says:
"Includes extra new mouthpipe (w/less taper), 5th valve assembly (.750 bore), sleeve for 4th valve slide, and Altieri gig bag."

Gravid · Post by **Gravid** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:21 am

I can bring this horn to TMEA if anyone is seriously interested and wants to take it for a spin. I need to know soon, as I don't want to schlepp the horn unnecessarily . . .

TubaTodd · Post by **TubaTodd** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:20 pm

Rick Denney wrote:
TubaAS wrote:Joe, do you know who owns that Holton that you did? Just curious.
I can answer that (not who, but what). Dave Fedderly took it apart, and used the various pieces to fill out a couple of BBb Holtons. The resulting BBb tubas were pretty good (I played both of them), and they apparently sold quickly to happy owners.

It was a shame to undo Joe's beautiful work, but it found new life for the parts for tubas that will get played a lot.

Rick "who still thinks he has the best of the BBb Holtons" Denney

GASP!!! You mean to tell me that the BEAUTIFUL satin silver Holton was taken apart to be used on other horns???? I can't even fatham that. It would be like taking apart a beautiful cathedral and using the lumber for a brothel.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:12 pm

TubaTodd wrote:GASP!!![/size] You mean to tell me that the BEAUTIFUL satin silver Holton was taken apart to be used on other horns???? I can't even fatham that. It would be like taking apart a beautiful cathedral and using the lumber for a brothel.

So, BBb tubas (with manageable intonation) are equated to brothels and C tubas (with challenging intonation) are equated to cathedrals?

Ooooo-kaaaay.

Joe has already pointed out that the fat upper bow of the top-action BBb instrument that he used in his conversion the likely culprit in its intontion quirks. Of course, he was making an instrument for himself to use, considering what was available at the time and how much it cost (and whether those choices didn't also come with intonation challenges). There are better choices now, and that's why that particular reconstructed Holton was no longer competitive. But there was some fine craftsmanship (and I mean in the functional sense) on that tuba, and the good parts being used on other instruments is a worthy end to the experiment. Otherwise, it would languish in someone's collection, being looked at only.

Rick "who thinks the BBb price point has to be lower, but there is still a bigger market for good BBb 6/4 tubas" Denney

TubaTodd · Post by **TubaTodd** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:52 pm

Rick Denney wrote:
TubaTodd wrote:GASP!!![/size] You mean to tell me that the BEAUTIFUL satin silver Holton was taken apart to be used on other horns???? I can't even fatham that. It would be like taking apart a beautiful cathedral and using the lumber for a brothel.
So, BBb tubas (with manageable intonation) are equated to brothels and C tubas (with challenging intonation) are equated to cathedrals?

That isn't even close to what I was trying to say. I was saying that the Satin Silver Holton looked like such a thing of beauty and quality craftsmanship that it would be a shame to take it apart for use as parts. One of my local friends who knows a little about that horn and what happened with the parts told me WHY it was used for parts.

Yes, I am a CC tuba player, but I don't have the sophomorish attitude that CC tubas are catherdrals and BBb tubas are brothels. I think we had a communication breakdown.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:24 pm

TubaTodd wrote:That isn't even close to what I was trying to say.

I know that--I was just twisting your tail. I shouldn't have followed it up with a serious paragraph, though.

Rick "intending no offense" Denney

TubaTodd · Post by **TubaTodd** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:53 pm

Rick Denney wrote:
TubaTodd wrote:That isn't even close to what I was trying to say.
I know that--I was just twisting your tail. I shouldn't have followed it up with a serious paragraph, though.

Rick "intending no offense" Denney

No harm done. My local friend said that he traded some parts to a well known tuba store and his parts were used in conjuction with parts from the satin silver one to make 2 fine BBbs. My friend has a Holton 345 BBb tuba "made" (assembled) by the same store and it sounds GREAT!!

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:02 pm

TubaTodd wrote:My local friend said that he traded some parts to a well known tuba store and his parts were used in conjuction with parts from the satin silver one to make 2 fine BBbs. My friend has a Holton 345 BBb tuba "made" (assembled) by the same store and it sounds GREAT!!

I played both of those instruments a little bit, and indeed they sounded great, just like the best of the Holtons. But mine responds better than either. I'm scared to have the dents ironed out for fear of upsetting something important, even if it was accidental.

Rick "contemplating having the bottom bow yanked to fix the big dents" Denney