Looking for a Berliner Tuba (Moritz)

[2165]

I'm looking for a Berliner Tuba in F, preferably from one of the firms Moritz-Berlin. 4-5-6 valves, doesnt matter, just that it's relatively original.

[SousaWarrior9]

As am I. The only problem is that there aren't many left, and the few that are still in good condition are in museums or not for sale. That's why I'm currently trying to build my own replica of one (it's a long shot, I know) because even if I fond one, it'd probably be way to much for me to afford.
Let me know if you find any good leads on one, though. Best of luck!

[Tom Coffey]

That picture is the coolest thing I have seen in a while. I wonder if that could be played effectively in an orchestra? Something small maybe, like MidSummer Night's Dream?

[iiipopes]

Remember that this instrument was designed to replace the ophicleide, hence the narrow, tall construction, similar bugle profile and five valves distributed to both hands.

[thezman]

These pop up on ebay about once or twice a year. It's been a very long time since these were "popular" in the U.S. and even then they weren't that common (Even its "competitors" saxhorns and orphicleides aren't that common here either). If you're really looking for one you'd be better off calling (or emailing) around to shops in Germany (where there were far more than in the U.S.) and Scandinavian countries, where they were in use much longer (and therefore it is more likely to have more survivors) than here.

[2165]

thezman: I live in Berlin, but it never hurts to look under every stone..you never know who might be reading Tubnet;)

iiipopes: berliner tubas (ie.19th century, from the family Moritz) were not designed to replace ophicleides per say, rather from what we know now, they were two separate designs that evolved geographically independent of each other.
The bugels tend to be quite different, and the narrow bell flair, which was also due to the spinning technology available at that time, tends to be more of a berliner tuba trend. The berliner tubas often have a much more pronounced taper rate than most ophicleides.
The valve placement was also designed so that the weak fingers, thumb/pinky were avoided yet one still has a mostly complete chromatic scale.

Tom Coffey: They can and have been;) In a 19th century orchestra they work just fine.

SousaWarrior9: I am also building a replica, but to find an original one intact is extremely difficult. Very often shoddy repairs, part replacement, and wars have destroyed the key features of a particular instrument. Even the museum examples are not as original as one might think...In the end, you have to examine every instrument and decide what was original and hopefully there will be enough data to build something authentic.

one step at a time...

cheers
2165

[iiipopes]

iiipopes: berliner tubas (ie.19th century, from the family Moritz) were not designed to replace ophicleides per say, rather from what we know now, they were two separate designs that evolved geographically independent of each other. The bugels tend to be quite different, and the narrow bell flair, which was also due to the spinning technology available at that time, tends to be more of a berliner tuba trend. The berliner tubas often have a much more pronounced taper rate than most ophicleides. The valve placement was also designed so that the weak fingers, thumb/pinky were avoided yet one still has a mostly complete chromatic scale.

There is confusion from the bombardon being developed about the same time, and Berlioz, after hearing the tuba, going back and re-orchestrating his ophicleide parts to tuba.

From the Vienna Symphonic Library http://www.vsl.co.at/en/70/3139/3153/3154/5493.vsl" target="_blank :

From the 1820s onward numerous bass instruments of similar construction but with different names were built; in 1829, for instance, W. Riedl made a valved instrument in Vienna which was modeled on the ophicleide and became known as the bombardon. This wide-bored instrument had a powerful tone and was still used in military bands after the advent of the tuba. The French counterpart of the bombardon was made by the industrious and well-known instrument maker Adolphe Sax (1814–1894), who in 1843 was granted a patent for a group of valved brass instruments which covered the entire tonal range: the usual names for these instruments were saxhorn, saxtromba and saxtuba and they were used mainly in military circles.

It served as a model for a variety of other bass instruments, such as the bombardon and the saxtuba.

1835 – the birth of the modern bass tuba

In 1835 Johann Moritz and the trombonist Wilhelm Wieprecht (1802–1872) were granted a Prussian patent in Berlin for the bass tuba. Although valved instruments in the bass register already existed (e.g. the bombardon) this was the first instrument to bear the name bass tuba.

The bass tuba was made of brass, keyed in F and had five piston valves (“Berlin valves”). The first three valves were operated by the right hand, the other two by the left.

The 1st and 2nd valves lowered the fundamental note by a whole tone and a semitone respectively in relation to the key of F; the 3rd valve lowered the instrument’s tuning by a fourth, from F to C. The 4th and 5th valves lowered the pitch from C by a whole tone and a semitone (wide half step, wide whole step) respectively. The relatively narrow bore meant that the bass notes were not particularly loud or powerful.

In the course of the reorganization of Prussian military music Wieprecht introduced two bass tubas into every band, which aided the instrument’s distribution and further development. Because the gap between the 1st and 2nd naturals could not be bridged on an instrument with three valves, subsequent tubas were made with four to six valves.

The fact that the bombardon and the bass tuba existed at the same time often led to confusion. Hector Berlioz described Wieprecht’s tuba as a bombardon with an improved mechanism and stated that its timbre was very much like that of the ophicleide. In France, the tuba was known for a long time as the ophicléide-à-pistons. Two features distinguished the tuba from the bombardon: the wide bore profile and the valves, the new “Berlin pistons”. The following explanation helps to clear up the confusion surrounding the two instruments: the bass instrument used in military bands was called the bombardon, while its counterpart in the symphony orchestra was known as the tuba.

In 1835 Wilhelm Wieprecht and Johann Moritz were granted a patent for a bass instrument with five valves, which they called a bass tuba.

The introduction of the tuba solved the problem of a satisfactory bass voice in military and wind bands. Despite this symphony orchestras were slow to adopt it.

Hector Berlioz first encountered the bass tuba on tour in Germany and describes it as follows: “In Prussia the bass tuba has replaced the ophicleide; it is a large wind instrument with five rotary valves which give it a large compass in the low register. The low notes are blurred, but when two tubas double an octave apart this produces an enormous resonance. In the middle and upper registers the sound is very refined and not as flat as the ophicleide's, rich, vibrant and well-matched to the timbre of the trombones and trumpets, which the tuba serves as the bass voice.” Berlioz was one of the first composers to embrace the tuba with enthusiasm, using it in virtually all his scores in place of the ophicleide.

Gradually the bass tuba began appearing in various orchestras and by the second half of the 19th century it had been widely adopted in German orchestras.

[2165]

Hallo iiipopes,

sorry for the late reply! Thank you for the article from the Vienna Symphonic Library. I believe the actual information itself has been incorrectly interpreted by many brass historians, and we have often repeated what was previously written without going back to reconsider the primary sources or new information that has come to light.

Yes, I am aware of the terminology confusion, but I believe the "Berliner tubas" were a unique class of early low brass development. In a sense, they were tubas in name only and because of this, I think it's difficult to say that "Berliner-tubas" were meant to replace ophycleides

While Berlioz states that in Germany the "Basstuba" has replaced the ophycleide, but in fact ophycleides were never widely used in German windbands, and as for orchestras, when the ophycleide was finally replaced, it was not by a berliner tuba, so what instrument did Berlioz actually mean?
Even though he said "one of Wieprechts bass tubas" this could have referred to a large group of bombardons, tubas, etc. especially considering he mentioned that it had "5 rotary valves"..
In the end, this is not such a black and white issue, rather a very grey one..especially when we consider the experimental nature of brass instrument making in the mid 19th century.

Also, in terms of records, the production of "Berliner tubas" ceased before the ophycleide, so I would tend to believe that the ophycleide in some ways, outlasted the berliner tubas.

If you have information to shed more light on this, I would be very happy to see it. I keep hoping to find a picture of a berliner tuba being used in an orchestra, but so far I havent had any luck:(

Regards,
2165

[2165]

a berliner bump

[2165]

keeping the dream alive!
Bump to the top

[2165]

keeping the dream alive!
Bump to the top

[oedipoes]

I saw something like that on the tuba Exchange website.
Is that what you're looking for?

Wim