Marching Trombone vs Marching Baritone sound differences?

[hntjr]

I have been trying to add a third voice to my horns. I have a Conn 25i euphorium and an Olds Recording trombone. I recently bought a Holton 58 bass trumpet thinking it might be a nice third voice (on top of), but found it too stuffy. After a bit of reading I started looking for an Olds/Reynolds/Bach marching trombone or marching baritone. I'd like the third voice to be in-between (or on top of) the Olds Recording trombone and Conn 25i euphonium. Hopefully someone reading this post will have played both a marching trombone and marching baritone and could give me an idea of which might best fit in-between (or on top of) my two horns sound. Thanks for your input.

[TheGoyWonder]

Big differences in bass trumpet, marching trombone, marching baritone, and regular euphonium.
Bass trumpet is an oddity. Very stuffy, can be shrill, gutless low range. The sound is effective in very specialty instances.

Marching trombone can sound a dead ringer for trombone. I've got the Olds marching bone and it's very effective for jazz and trombone subbing. Use it on 2nd/3rd parts and nobody can tell the difference. Great low-mid range. Other versions like King and Kanstul sound darker/stuffier than trombone at about a trumpet vs cornet level, I'd stick with the Olds. There are stencils, including Mercedes stencils of both designs so look carefully at Mercedes.

Marching baritone doesn't have the sweet sound of euphonium or the real-trombone articulation of marching trombone. It exists to sound good at distance, at full volume and not very useful for the individual. If you're experimenting, you could make deep synth-brassy sounds with one. King 1127 has my favorite sound, Yamaha is a good player and a more clear synthy sound.

[hntjr]

I recently called Ted Waggoner at Bach. I had talked to Ted in the past and enjoyed talking to him very much. I had read that Olds bought the Olds Marching Trombone/Baritone design and also read that Bach bought the tooling. Ted confirmed that Bach bought the Olds tooling when Olds went out of business and then made the Bach Mercedes from the Olds tooling.

I encouraged Ted to write a book when he retires as he is truly fascinating to talk to with all his knowledge of horn history.

Thanks for your response. Often when I ask a question the answer goes off in a direction of its own. In this case both responses were informative, to the point and helpful. I still wish I could go some place and play both horns. Nothing like playing. And Bloke has even got me thinking about a tuba, third voice low.

[pjv]

Not so long ago I was playing a Holton marching trombone (I guess thats what it is cause the proportions are exactly the same as most valve trombones) that belonged to a band I was subbing in. I actually sold them this instrument long ago because it was too stuffy for my taste.
Since then about four or five braces were loose, making the instrument rather unpredictable. So out came the rubber bands (the kind used in theaters for light cables) and bam, suddenly the instrument was playing like, well, a music instrument! I thought maybe I had changed, but the next time I subbed with the band they'd taken my advice and had the braces soldered up...and the Holton played as stuffy as it ever did.

So if you come across a Holton AND my suspicion is correct ("if") the basic build of the Holton works great (or at least this Holton). It could however use some attention at the assembly level, particularly the bracing under in.

[TheGoyWonder]

Yes, if you can already play real trombone maybe don't bother with the marching trombone unless you want valves. Most marching euphs are just horizontal euphs and a bitch to hold.

I suspect the Yamaha marching baritone is a spin of the bach/mercedes/olds-looking design, like their tubas are Besson-inspired. The bell, bore, and body match with just subtle plumbing changes, like 2nd valve slide going backwards instead of forwards and the main tuning slide is less wide.

This DEG is a strange variant maybe based on the same design, with a turn straightened out of the bugle making for an oddly long body like something out of old grainy drum corps videos. Price seems very good. Definitely a marching baritone not a flugabone.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/D-E-G-DON-GETZE ... 20ffd29706

The only other common marching baritone design is the King, with distinct leadpipe curving into 3rd valve and entering at a right angle. This one has a more interesting sound but trickier intonation and fairly heavy to hold. Jupiter and most knockoffs are in this family. So in practical terms there are really just two choices for marching baritones and both are good.

[Dan Schultz]

How about looking for a 'trombonium'!

[ppalan]

I hope this isn't hijacking the thread but is this one of the instruments discussed so far? If it isn't, then what exactly is it? It is played by Leonhard Paul with the Mnozil Brass who is also a trombonist. I used the URL rather than the IMAGE because the entire pic wouldn't show.
http://www.mnozilbrass.at/wp-content/ga ... _web_r.jpg

Pete

[pjv]

It's a Wunderhorn, Schagerl's bass trumpet. I've never played it but I've heard it! It sounds to my ears like a valved trombone (eh, that what we might call the modern bass trumpet).
Seeing as Schagerl is active in making boutique instruments for one of the worlds most respected brass ensembles I can imagine this being one of the better instruments available in the valve-trombone/bass trumpet genre.

Which leads me to wonder, why do I never hear about Cerveny valve trombones in these kind of discussions? Are they really that bad?

[Levaix]

I've had my Olds marching trombone (/flugabone) for over a year now, and most people say I don't sound QUITE like a trombone. I needed something a little more brash than my big B&S euphonium (or even my bell front Bach) for a ska band I was in. I don't know if it would be different enough from your trombone to warrant buying one, but personally I really love the fun factor this little horn offers. Plays wonderfully with something around a 7C.

That Wunderhorn looks very cool! Quite a bit like a rotary version of my Olds.