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Mark Finley wrote:I'm not sure the concept of replacing a piston valve with a rotor is one than anyone can corner the market on, legally.

I'd also be very surprised if that were the case.

UncleBeer wrote:

Mark Finley wrote:I'm not sure the concept of replacing a piston valve with a rotor is one than anyone can corner the market on, legally.

I'd also be very surprised if that were the case.

By all means, I wouldn't think so at all.
As columbus wouldn't be able to patent how to balance an egg.

It's a matter of who had the idea of doing so on the compesators, and have been doing so for quite some time.
It's a matter of taking pride of other persons work.

welp all double french horns have it. and there are dozens of brands of double french horns so I think not a patent issue.

Okay, I just want to share from my side of this how this tuba came to be to clear up how things were done.

Jonathan approached me in the summer about turning my "Grand" BBb tuba into a 3+1 compensating tuba. I'm not a fan of compensating tubas but I thought sure why not. He threw out the idea then about using a rotor for the fourth valve. I just smiled and nodded. I thought that would look goofy and I wasn't sure how people would take to that on a production horn. I'd planned in my mind to make it work with the already existing valve block from his line up.

When I was in the factory in the summer I loaded up a regular 3+1 valve set, a grand body, leadpipe, and a bunch of tubing into a box. That box was going to go to the US then be shipped to me so I could build the horn in my shop. Jonathan wanted it done for the September trip so I was gonna have around three months to build the horn. Three months to slap a 3+1 set onto a 6/4 body? Too easy I thought.

Well long story short the box didn't make it Into the container. Jonathan said "well you can just build it at the factory". To be honest I was a bit nervous about that. One week isn't a lot of time to build any tuba, let alone a new model. I do like to eat though so I decided I was gonna make it happen.

So when I got to china I just grabbed a grand body and an excelsior that had to be redone for finish issues and I got to work. I tore off the piston set and mocked it up on the grand body. It was pretty obvious from the get go that the reach to the fourth piston was gonna be an issue. Putting the piston block where it was balanced put the fourth completely out of reach for me. Someone much bigger than me could have used it, but I didn't want to build a tuba where to had to be over 6 foot to play it (I round up to 5 foot 9). I tried moving the fourth piston around but either the porting for the valve was bad or it wasn't in a good place to use. So I decided screw it, I'll use a rotor for the fourth. That's what Jonathan had wanted and I couldn't make it work with a piston. I've added a couple fourth rotor valves to non compensating horns before so this shouldn't be much different.

The next week was full of lots of trial and error. I made 4 different main tuning slide crooks, had the rotor in 3 different spots, and did 4 different fourth valve wraps. This body never really had in mind the use of a 3+1 set so making all the piping work without a ton of small bends was a challenge. I originally had the fourth valve tubing not go down nearly as low and I had the slide between the bell and the first valve. I wanted the slide to be an easy reach while playing but I just didn't have room for this. I had also thought about a fourth valve slide going up by the third valve but I didn't want to have to change the direction of the piston knuckles.

I finally got it put together and showed Jonathan. He then asked me to move the entire valve block lower on the horn. So the next day was making it all work for that. After a lot of soldering and swearing I got it to what he has shown.

This project had very little guidance from Jonathan other than 6/4 BBb with compensating valves, maybe use a rotor for the fourth. He didn't mention Mike at all when he pitched it to me and I wasn't even aware about his conversions until this week. With my limited internet here in china (and google being blocked here) I can't even find a picture of any of his BBb conversions. I saw a picture of his Eb conversion yesterday for the first time. It does look similar, but after building it there really weren't many other ways to build it. There are four fixed ports to have to line up with. Kinda limits your options, especially on a big body like this.

I hope this sheds some light on how this tuba came to be. Now it's off to bed so I can finish a few more new models before the trip is over.

Anyways.

Disregard who did what and when.

I hope this turns out to be a terrific tuba with an easy and workable intonation.
It will be good to get som core and fundamental back in the bands.

And remember....."We" don't do slide-pulling in banding ;)
And as for trigger......30 cent is ~4.5 cm, so not really that practical "on the run"

Good luck with the product. Looking forward to try it

Contrabass? More like Contra-versy!

Put a Z-valve in the compensating 4th valve, and you'll double the who-made-what-first fun! :P

bort wrote:Put a Z-valve in the compensating 4th valve, and you'll double the who-made-what-first fun!

It is a Z-valve and not standard rotary valve we are using

At one time B&S offered a 3 piston one rotor Eb tuba - the model 291. One nifty feature was the adjustable height leadpipe

See images here:

http://www.flohmarkt.ms/hoerner/b+s+pro ... ew=gallery" target="_blank

Bloke, That change is already planned in production tuba. Thank you for your feedback

Time to lock this thread.

KiltieTuba wrote:

iiipopes wrote:Time to lock this thread.

Why?
If we can't discuss simple designs and TUBAS, why bother having TubeNet?

It would not be because of the discussion. It would be because of what appears to be a serious disagreement between two persons that probably is not a proper point of discussion here on TubeNet.

As long as you are making the 4th valve a rotor, I would love if someone made to operate with the right or left hand. I like the Besson 983 but often when playing low passages I reach across with my left hand to operate the 4th valve.

Could we get a couple of pictures of the 4th valve assembly?

GC wrote:Could we get a couple of pictures of the 4th valve assembly?

Later! The 4th valve is behind 2nd valve slide and removing that slide enables easy access to the rotor from both sides. Lever is on 1st valve slide giving short linkage and easy reach.

We hope to have production prototype ready March

The 6/4 compensated BBb continues to be developed, now with re-routed 3rd and 4th valve loops. We are hoping to involve a top British Championship BBb Bass player to give us feedback before the design is finalised.

Easy to hold and play with depth of sound beyond anything previously heard in a Brass Bands, I can wait to see these out and hear these within a band.

bloke wrote:bad pun: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/circular-argument

Personally, I think this (general concept) is one of Johnathan's better ideas..."BAT's for Englishmen"

So, that would make it a Cricket BAT?

Well played indeed!