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Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:40 pm
by bloke
Alex-style 'pipe routing seems to allow for a 5th rotor option.

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:14 am
by Ace
bloke wrote:
Ace wrote:Wow! I want one. Congratulations, Jonathan et al.

Oh, wait------it's in BBb. Darn. I don't want to learn Bb bass clef fingerings.

Ace


Did you pick up tuba as an adult, or where your childhood experiences in the school band atypical?

-------------------------------
' tuba looks good !


I've been playing trumpet from 1947 to present. Didn't start tuba until circa 1992----CC, Wm Bell by Getzen. I have always read bass clef well, and use of trumpet fingerings comes naturally on a CC tuba.

Ace

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:23 am
by Wyvern

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:45 am
by Wyvern

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:36 pm
by hrender
Image

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:33 am
by Wyvern
bloke wrote:Alex-style 'pipe routing seems to allow for a 5th rotor option.

Yes, there is plenty of room, but we are concerned of possible adverse effect to response. This will be evaluated when we have multiple Kaiser to make comparison

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:59 am
by Mark Finley
Any plans for a similar CC?

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:23 am
by bloke
Wyvern wrote:
bloke wrote:Alex-style 'pipe routing seems to allow for a 5th rotor option.

Yes, there is plenty of room, but we are concerned of possible adverse effect to response. This will be evaluated when we have multiple Kaiser to make comparison


I'd predict nothing noticeable, other than a fully-chromatic low range on a tuba which copies a professional-grade instrument.
- The mouthpipe tube is quite long, with-or-without that two inches at the end of it.
- The vibrating air column is already going past four D-shaped distortions through the other rotors. Yet another one would only be felt by the most princess-and-the-pea player (well...along with others who imagine things felt or heard which have already been seen).

Assuming - as you claim - the tuning is easier than with the original, "full chromatic range" would be a very nice option.

appearance: (the only think on which I can comment for now)
Currently it's only colored dots on my computer screen. It really looks great! :shock: 8)
Additionally, that new 6-valve version of that sorta-Miraphone/sorta-B&S F-tuba you sell looks a lot more handsome (to me) than the 5-valve version. The overall appearance is more balanced.

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:40 am
by Wyvern
Mark Finley wrote:Any plans for a similar CC?

No, we think there is not much demand for a CC version, even if it was possible while retaining the special tone of this type of tuba

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:50 am
by Wyvern
bloke wrote:I'd predict nothing noticeable, other than a fully-chromatic low range on a tuba which copies a professional-grade instrument.

I tend to agree with you that a 5th valve will have little effect, but we need to confirm when we can compare a 5-valve Kaiser, against 4-valve.

bloke wrote:Assuming - as you claim - the tuning is easier than with the original, "full chromatic range" would be a very nice option.

I can understand your scepticism, as it has not been achieved before, but we have multiple professional tubist here at the factory testing, so are confident it has been achieved - but we will have the Kaiser at the Midwest and US Army events, so do try for yourself. I know you love the sound of these tubas (as I do - I must get up to speed playing BBb)!

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:56 am
by bort
Wyvern wrote:
Mark Finley wrote:Any plans for a similar CC?

No, we think there is not much demand for a CC version, even if it was possible while retaining the special tone of this type of tuba


Seems like several people around here could be interested. I realize that's a long way from guaranteed sales... and enough to justify the development costs... but I've always thought that a modern CC Kaiser would be really, really cool.

The Alex 164 is about the closest thing... but they are rare, and are reported to have the classic Alex intonation problems (since the CC 164 is just cut from the BBb 164).

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:02 pm
by Mark Finley
The cerveny 601 and the Neptune are very close, of course I have a 601 that I love, so it would take a lot to get me to change.

I'm surprised that Jonathan (former tubenet name "neptune") has not brought a neptune to the marketplace. He's obviously a fan.

And this isn't meant as a slap to his business practices, but with all of the Niche instruments he's had built and brings the to the marketplace, a Kaiser Rotary CC tuba is where he draws a line in the sand???

Maybe he thinks the marketplace is saturated, (miraphone, Tuono, ect) but I think there's room for an affordable Rotary CC out there, especially one larger than the standard 186 size

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:20 pm
by bort
I think that's a "miss" as well, Mark, but the idea of a large rotary CC is kind of a mismatch of key and styles. It's sort of like a rotary Eb tuba, or a piston F tuba. People who want that key usually want the other style of valves. Yes, there are some that exist... and some are great... but there aren't many of those around, and I'm guessing there aren't a lot that get sold.

It's circular, though. There aren't many that are sold... because there aren't many to sell.

People like me will always be interested in a really large rotary CC tuba. I recently decided to go back to pistons, because in the "really large CC" flavor, I just wasn't finding what I wanted with rotary valves. Kind of a shame, but that's how it goes.

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:28 pm
by Mark Finley
I don't see why a rotary CC is a mismatch. Or a piston F for the matter

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:46 pm
by bort
Mark Finley wrote:I don't see why a rotary CC is a mismatch. Or a piston F for the matter


Just based on country of origin and the typical preferences of those countries.

Very loosely (and satirically!) speaking...
CC tubas are made for 'Muricans, and this land is piston land. It used to only be BBb piston land, so do your best to assimilate that shorter-length tuba with what's already here. Being CC and rotary is two "differents," and people will make fun of you.

F tubas come aus dem Vaterland, and they belong with rotary valves. It's tradition. The end.

People don't go switching keys and valves around too often, especially when going for mass-market give-people-what-they-are-looking-for manufacturers. At least not in the first few rounds of development.

After time goes on, the purpose of a manufacturer isn't to play the game of making all possible combinations of things on all horns, but to decide what works best, and more importantly what SELLS best. There will always be things that some people like more than others, and they might just not be deemed worthy to exist in mass production.

Frankly, I think the star with the mushroom top looks cool, and I'd love to see it more in Mario 3... but you'll never see it elsewhere in the game.

Image

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:09 pm
by Doc
bort wrote:Seems like several people around here could be interested. I realize that's a long way from guaranteed sales... and enough to justify the development costs... but I've always thought that a modern CC Kaiser would be really, really cool.

The Alex 164 is about the closest thing... but they are rare, and are reported to have the classic Alex intonation problems (since the CC 164 is just cut from the BBb 164).


Quite possibly the best tuba I've ever played (and the one I've agonized over the most) was an Alexander 164 BBb. Incredible sound, spot-on intonation, superb response, very easy in all registers. I went to Custom to test and possibly purchase an HB6, found the Alex that outplayed everything in the tubahouse for half the price, but dumb@$$ me just HAD TO HAVE a big piston CC (which actually was a good instrument, just not as good as the 164 BBb).

And the 164 CC's I've played...? By comparison, they suck.

I also played Ed Jones (early production) Neptune. A real winner (despite not being a real Kaiser), but it is NOT for sale.

The closest thing to a CC Kaiser that comes to mind: MW Tuono, and it's not a typical kaiser design. I have to say that the first time I tried a Tuono, I would have bought it on the spot if I'd have the funds. Wonderful instrument, kaiser or not.

I have NO aversion to playing BBb, so I don't think about reinventing the BBb wheel into CC. However, a true kaiser in CC is a cool idea that might get some traction. The problem for poor working stiffs like me is that the really fine BBb Kaisers are NOT cheap. Even used, they can be a pretty penny. The CC equivalents are not cheap either. I appreciate Jonathan's efforts in this area to make it easier for folks to acquire new instruments of good quality. Not everyone can afford a 197, Fafner, Hagen, Siegfried, Tuono, or even a restored pre--war B&F (one of my win-the-lotto dreams). But they might be able to swing a Wessex...

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:16 pm
by Mark Finley
Sigh
from the company that offers (curerently)
A bass sackbut
a C valve trombone
A double Belled Euphonium
Two different sizes of tornester horns
A french tuba
Eight kinds of Eb tubas, including two rotary horns
Two keys of Helicons
three different keys of Ophicleides

But... there's no market for a Kaiser CC tuba.

Fine

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:21 pm
by Doc
bort wrote:
Just based on country of origin and the typical preferences of those countries.

Very loosely (and satirically!) speaking...
CC tubas are made for 'Muricans, and this land is piston land. It used to only be BBb piston land, so do your best to assimilate that shorter-length tuba with what's already here. Being CC and rotary is two "differents," and people will make fun of you.


There are many reports of German players seeing non-traditional tubas at Musikmesse and not even wanting to try them because they don't look correct. And how about all those piston CC and F tubas in German orchestras? LOL Yep. Tradition is strong there, and I imagine tradition is thoroughly "encouraged." In some respects, it's no different here. Only recently has the big German BBb become a tool that might make the occasional appearance in a major symphony orchestra.

F tubas come aus dem Vaterland, and they belong with rotary valves. It's tradition. The end.


I'm afraid I fall into this category. I've played some really fantastic piston F tubas, but the sound and feel or rotary F tubas is very appealing. And the traditional appearance is proper for German folk music.

People don't go switching keys and valves around too often, especially when going for mass-market give-people-what-they-are-looking-for manufacturers. At least not in the first few rounds of development.


Yup. Know your market and meet the needs of that market.

After time goes on, the purpose of a manufacturer isn't to play the game of making all possible combinations of things on all horns, but to decide what works best, and more importantly what SELLS best. There will always be things that some people like more than others, and they might just not be deemed worthy to exist in mass production.


And that's the bottom line! (in my best Stone Cold Steve Austin voice)

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:27 pm
by Doc
Mark Finley wrote:Sigh
from the company that offers (currently)
A bass sackbut
a C valve trombone
A double Belled Euphonium
Two different sizes of tornester horns
A french tuba
Eight kinds of Eb tubas, including two rotary horns
Two keys of Helicons
three different keys of Ophicleides

But... there's no market for a Kaiser CC tuba.

Fine


Maybe the thought process is that the main market for the Kaiser is Europe, not the US. Or maybe the budget is currently stretched too thin with specialty instruments that new variations are not in the immediate picture? Maybe Jonathan can offer some insight.

If they offered a kaiser BBb and a kaiser CC, I think there would be interest in both. How that interest would actually translate into sales might be another thing. But if it is a high quality, great-playing tuba, surely there would be sales...?

Doc (armchair quarterbacking today)

Re: A Kaiser is born!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:50 pm
by Doc
What are the specs?

Do you know what mouthpieces they were using? I’m curious if this Kaiser, like many others, responds better to large mouthpieces.