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one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby bloke » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:15 am

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Sweet Brown wrote:Ain't nobody got time for that.
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby windshieldbug » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:53 am

I, personally, choose to hire 4 or 5 subcontractors; one for each valve.
Then it is *never* my fault if I miss a note.
Expensive? Not really, on the last night I just tell them, "You've been paid enough, if you don't like it- sue me!"
I hear that works really well in other forms of business... :P
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby hup_d_dup » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:47 am

What is it? (beside being broken)

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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby bloke » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:49 pm

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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby bort » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:36 pm

pot metal?
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby bloke » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:10 pm

bort wrote:pot metal?


no...but two-piece construction, and delicate...and (as Mike Mason so aptly and frankly puts things - via labeling things that others shy away from labeling, and asking players "which one did you buy?" since no one else has the courage to ask them) clicky.
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby hup_d_dup » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:35 am



OK, it's a part from this tuba, right? Am I on the right track?

Give me another clue, please.

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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby Ken Crawford » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:30 pm

I think he's glad he hasn't sold any rotary valve tubas from Jinbao because Jinbao refuses, for some reason, to use quality components on any of their rotary valve instruments. Including from the "high-end" Jinbao vendors. They all suck, badly. I don't know why such vendors refuse to acknowledge the inferiority of their product. The valves on my John Packer F on the other hand are pretty much B&S quality, I love them.

Edit: Actually Schiller, yes Schiller, built by Jinbao, has in the past sold a 6 valve PT16 clone with genuine Minibal linkage. Those were nice. So Jinbao CAN do it, they just choose not too. And Wessex COULD be using them but chooses not too. That new $10K Kaiser will probably come with the same craptastic toothpick linkage they've always used.
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby hup_d_dup » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:36 pm

How about that. Using Bloke's thread to trash Wessex on the Sponsor forum.

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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby Wyvern » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:34 pm

For your information, I know of only a handful of broken linkage ever occurring with Wessex tubas out of hundreds of tubas sold. When that has occurred it has been at the joint, but as I say it is a very rare occurrence, and then Wessex has sent replacement part at no charge under warrenty (we have spares in stock). The rods are actually made of stainless steel, so hardly weak and vulnerable to breakage.
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby Ken Crawford » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:16 pm

Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. My criticism is only meant to be constructive. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks Wessex can improve their product. I mean if Schiller can do it, surely Wessex can.
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby Wyvern » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:31 pm

Ken Crawford wrote:Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. My criticism is only meant to be constructive. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks Wessex can improve their product. I mean if Schiller can do it, surely Wessex can.

Wessex is always making improvements in every area of the tubas construction. Wherever we can improve, we do improve. For example I think the long running problem of difficult valve threads we have at last solved, but more on that later...

As I stated above, the rotary linkage has not been a big problem. Nice smooth and quiet rotary valves have been our priority, and that is now the case - and as with everything from Wessex quality checked by our US and European team of professional musicians before accepting - and nothing leaves the factory unless every aspect is fully satisfactory. Our quality checking is so rigorous that during our August factory visit only 47% of instruments were accepted to be shipped out and the factory QA manager was sacked!
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby mclaugh » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:50 pm

Ken Crawford wrote:Edit: Actually Schiller, yes Schiller, built by Jinbao, has in the past sold a 6 valve PT16 clone with genuine Minibal linkage. Those were nice. So Jinbao CAN do it, they just choose not too..


Jin Bao would do it if their wholesale customers were willing to pay the extra buck-buck fiddy for quality components, but, we can't go blaming 'Murican bean counters for specifying crappy part because they're trying to wring every last drop of profit out of their products by cutting corners wherever possible, so let's just blame it on the Chinese manufacturers, right?
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby bort » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:08 pm

Years ago, there was a German website where a person was importing St Pete tubas from Russia to Germany, replacing the crappy Russian linkage with German parts, and reselling them.

If some Chinese tubas (whatever brand) are viewed as good tubas with bad linkages, why not just get them replaced right away? I'm guessing you would still come out with a pretty low price all told, especially for something brand new.
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby bloke » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:29 pm

bort wrote:Years ago, there was a German website where a person was importing St Pete tubas from Russia to Germany, replacing the crappy Russian linkage with German parts, and reselling them.

If some Chinese tubas (whatever brand) are viewed as good tubas with bad linkages, why not just get them replaced right away? I'm guessing you would still come out with a pretty low price all told, especially for something brand new.


In my view, that action arm and links were not connected to very enjoyable-to-use rotary valve assemblies (grabby, noisy, heavy, unpredictable), so...

St. Petersburg tubas:
I remember all the $h!t-talk here, years ago ("old" TubeNet), about St. Pete tubas (crappy-build, thin metal, blah, blah-blah, and blah-blah-blah).
The first time I ever had one in my shop, I found none of those things to be particularly true. It was in the shop because a rotor stem was broken off. A rotor stem was broken off because someone decided to knock the instrument over on to a linoleum floor - valve stem first. I ordered a rotor body to replace the broken one, received it promptly, was charged a fair price, and it only took a few minutes to fit it to the casing. The Russian tubas are not particularly "thin". Yamaha school-issue rotary BBb tubas typically arrive in the shop dented much more severely, and I would definitely label those Yamaha tubas as "thin"...but "thin" and "cheaply-made" are really not synonyms. To make something "thin" and "well" actually requires considerably more skill. :shock:
OK...Do I "like" the "piggy"-style St. Peterburg tubas? I do not care for them personally, just as I do not particularly care for the "piggy" style tubas in general...not the Czech-made "piggy"-style tubas, nor (even) the Miraphone "piggy"-style tubas. DEFINITION OF "PIGGY": My definition would be a short, fat tuba with a large bell opening, a high-rise upper bow, a small bell throat, and a very large valveset bore. Again, that "family/style" of instrument does not suit me, but I can see how some would like them, and (well...) I'm delighted to sell them to anyone who would like to buy one (if/when I have one for sale).
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby MartyNeilan » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:51 am

It is interesting to see the post where the Chinese QA was “sacked”. Most companies tend to get better at producing things the longer they are around. A typical example is a model of a car that has been out for several years, it usually has most of the bugs worked out. China often takes the opposite result, a process known as “Quality Fade”. There are numerous studies on it, but here is some relatively brief reading. It is good to know that Jonathan and others are actively working to combat this.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/quali ... hina-25441
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby Ken Crawford » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:56 pm

MartyNeilan wrote:It is interesting to see the post where the Chinese QA was “sacked”. Most companies tend to get better at producing things the longer they are around. A typical example is a model of a car that has been out for several years, it usually has most of the bugs worked out. China often takes the opposite result, a process known as “Quality Fade”. There are numerous studies on it, but here is some relatively brief reading. It is good to know that Jonathan and others are actively working to combat this.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/quali ... hina-25441" target="_blank


The problem in many Chinese factories including JinBao is employee retention. These workers aren't seasoned experts that have been or plan to be building instruments for 30 years. The guy building tubas at JinBao may have been assembling toasters six months ago. And a year from now he might be making pants. So when the QA guy gets fired, the next guy with the most experience probably replaced him, and that guy probably has a whole 12 months of experience with musical instrument production.
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby Wyvern » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:12 pm

Ken Crawford wrote:The problem in many Chinese factories including JinBao is employee retention. These workers aren't seasoned experts that have been or plan to be building instruments for 30 years. The guy building tubas at JinBao may have been assembling toasters six months ago. And a year from now he might be making pants. So when the QA guy gets fired, the next guy with the most experience probably replaced him, and that guy probably has a whole 12 months of experience with musical instrument production.

I can tell you that most of the staff assembling Wessex have been there for the last 3 years I have been going regularly to the factory. In fact some, such as the production manager are now good friends. Even when I am not at the factory, we still regularly communicate using the WeChat app - which is like the Chinese equivalent of WhatsApp.

Where there is a high staff turnover is in such areas as the polishing department. Anyone that has polished tubas knows it is a very dirty and tiring job. So not surprisingly as soon as they can find something less arduous, they do move on. It is probably no coincidence, that the number one reason Wessex rejects instruments is polishing issues, such as micro-scratching under the lacquer.
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby bort » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:43 pm

What happens to the rejected tubas (which are otherwise fine, except for scratching under the lacquer)?
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Re: one of the many reasons I choose to not sell these

Postby Mark Finley » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:48 pm

that's a good question. Can't sell them anywhere else because of the Name on the bell
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