Help with Gold Conn Sousaphone....

[Bandmaster]

I need help trying to figure out what kind of finish this old Conn sousaphone has. This is the one that I just bought off of eBay for really cheap and some artist that I beat out want me to sell it to him (if you remember that thread from the eBay forum a couple weeks ago). I was told that this horn sat in storage on the estate of a Judge in Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania for decades. The serial number shows that it was made in 1927.

Anyway, UPS delivered the horn this morning. I was so excited when I started checking the horn over, it has almost NO wear on it at all. There just a few tiny dings and a couple minor scratches at that's it. The finish is satin with polished ferrules and a gold wash bell. There are virtually no scratches on the edge of the bell and the gold wash is 99.5% perfect. But my problem is when I tried to polish the flawless engraving on the back of bell it doesn't polish up to a silver color. The horn definately has a satin finish, but it is NOT silver. It is either brass or (oh my God) GOLD????? I can not see any trace of laquer on the horn. I have never even heard of laquering a satin finish. If it were bare brass it would have a very strong patina, but it does not. I have played and polished many a satin silver sousaphone in my day, but i have never seen a finish with the color this one has. A very light colored brass or gold color. Below are two of the photos the seller put up on eBay and in them the horn appears silver, but the valve caps, buttons AND valve stems are gold/brass colored. The flanged where the bell screws are is polished gold/brass in color and the bell srews are too. I want to know what it could be before I continue to clean the horn. I don't want to polish with the wrong compound and risk damaging the surface. Any help indentifying the type of finish will be appreciated. Thanks....

[Bandmaster]

I had tried calling Dan Oberloh earlier and he was not in the shop yet.

I just got off the phone with him and he says it is indeed a satin GOLD finish. That was an option that Conn offered back then, I have just never seen one before. Satin gold... now I have to learn a whole new way to polish instruments, so this horn will turn out just right. Fortunately Dan told me just how to do it. I'm trying to figure out how I got this lucky, I only paid $690 plus shipping for this horn.

[Bandmaster]

Your horn may well have gold plating "inlay" - just in the bright/engraved parts on the outside of the bell. Conn did that, sometimes, for a special order.

bloke "surely not 'satin-gold' on the entire outside of the bell...which would have looked goofy next to the satin-silver body, anyway..."

Nope, not just the bell... the ENTIRE horn is GOLD, not just the polished areas. The satin finish is gold too. Dan said it was an available option, but is very rare. The photos don't show it, but it is GOLD. Dan said when they made it they silver plated the horn first, then gold plated on top of the silver. He said the silver content will cause a slight tarnish build up over time, which is what makes the horn look silver in the photos. Who knew???

[Uncle Buck]

Congratulations on a great purchase. I can remember watching that auction, thinking seriously about bidding. I guess being timid doesn't pay off.

[Lew]

I did bid on that horn, but decided not to go all the way. I'm sorry now that I didn't. If the valve plating is good, it was a real steal. I have a similar vintage Conn euphonium that is completely satin gold plated, except where the finish has worn or where solder repairs wore away the finish. The good thing is that under the gold plate the horn is probably silver plated. Any gold plated Conns that I had from that period were silver plated first, then gold plated, I guess because the gold plating adhered better on silver.

As others have said, the gold layer is relatively thin so be very careful when polishing. I'm glad this didn't go to an artist to destroy by putting in a work of art. It deserves to be played. Congratulations and enjoy it.

[Bandmaster]

I just finished cleaning it up enough to make it playable. All the slides came out except #2, and there wasn't even any spotting on the brass slides. The valves on the other hand were black with green grunge in the ports. I soaked them in vinegar and the green went away, but I had to scrub pretty hard to get rid of most of the black. I polished up all the non-satin areas and they really have a nice bright shine now. Even the valve stems are gold plated. And the front of the bell.... wow, it is gorgeous. Other than a couple of small scratches and one tiny ding it is 100%, no wear on the gold wash at all. I have never seen that before on an old horn. There is a small dent on the bottom of the main wrap, but there is NO wear or scratches. The are no scratches or rough spots around the edge of the bell, so somebody must have taken REALLY good care of of this horn. As soon as I find all the tools Dan told me to use to clean the gold satin I will attempt to polish it up real good. The valves are oiled up and are nice and fast and the horn really kicks out the sound from tuning Bb down, big and fat. But then it is a 38K... it's supposed to. It is slightly sharp on high Bb. I'll post photos when I have it nice and shiney all over. Thanks for the input...

[Bandmaster]

It is slightly sharp on high Bb.

...

...and a flat F at the bottom of the staff (like the 2XJ series tubas), as well (if it plays like all of the other 38K/20K/40K sousa's I've ever played).

I just finished going up and down the chromatic scale with my tuner and this sucker plays almost dead on. F at the bottom of the staff stands the needle straight up and down. I too have played on many 20Ks that have a flat F, but is the first 38K I have played on and I have never had a chance on a 40K. It plays better than my Olds sousaphone that I used to brag about to people. I think it even plays better than my Sanders Custom BBb. Maybe it's all that gold??? I wonder how much extra the gold plating adds to the value of the horn? In fact I wonder how much having the original shipping case adds to the value?

Anybody want to buy a nice 45 year old silver Olds sousaphone? It plays really nice.

[Bandmaster]

Anybody want to buy a nice 45 year old silver Olds sousaphone? It plays really nice.

Olds sousaphones remind me of Rodney Dangerfield...they get no respect. IMO, they are better than King sousaphones but not quite approaching a Conn ("standard" model 14K, my fav. model sousa - sounds more to me like an expensive 4/4-5/4 "symphonic" tuba than any other sousaphone...and with better intonation).

Funny how some folks will insist on a King, but will reject an Olds/Reynolds (almost parts-interchangable to many King sousaphone parts) hands-down.

bloke "who greatly respects Olds/Reynolds sousaphones, but buys Kings and Conns...only because they're easier to sell - once restored"

The Olds sousa was used by the students in the youth marching band that I founded and directed. Somebody donated it to the band and from that point on my tuba players fought over it. It played better than all the rest of our horns (mostly Kings). I have since sold off the Kings but hung onto the Olds to use for myself. Only it has lots and lots of small dings and one of the kids let the case get wet and sit in his garage too long so it mildewed which pitted the front of the bell by eating through the silver plating. It has a really smooth sound and is pretty well in tune. Only this new gold 38K seems to play a little better, big fat tone and better in tune. Plus it is in fabulous condition, so I now have a new sousa to use for those special outdoor events. I was testing them tonight and I discovered that the Olds' bell would responate (ring) everytime I would play a D and the Conn's bell would ring on every Eb. Eb matches up to more "band" keys (signatures) than a D does, so that's one more thing in it's favor.

[Bandmaster]

OK, I have completed the first round of cleaning and polishing on the outside of the horn. I had already cleaned the insides and lubed the slides and valves. There are still a few black spots in hard to reach areas that I need to figure out a way to get to and a fine black spots that just wouldn't come out all the way with mild scrubing. I used a plater's brush and Wright's Silver Creme with baking soda on the side, just like Dan Oberloh told me to. So far it looks pretty damn good to me, but I'll get those pesky little black spots sooner or later. Not bad for $690...

[Bandmaster]

After quickly glancing at my 1934 Conn bass catalog, I determined that this horn is a 38K-0 for finish with an original retail price of $535.

Does it list how much extra the great big shipping case (crate) is? This case is unreal... it is made of canvas covered ½" plywood, it has ¼" thick cast iron corner protectors, iron edge protector every 8" or so, reinforced wooden braces with iron caps on the end to secure it to the case, big iron hinges and three 6" tall steamer trunk style iron latches. You could runs over it with a truck and and not damage the horn. The case weights almost 85 pounds by itsself.

Can't wait to see the pics, Dave. Let us know how it plays after you really test it out.

I played it for over an hour yesterday and a little after I just polished. The valves are a little worn, but very smooth and fast. The valve springs are like brand new... that's crazy for something so old. There are no signs of any repair work ever having been done. The gold plating is a little thin in the normal spots, but you have to look real close to notice it. But there are NO bare spots, the plating is 100% intact. Like I said before... somebody took REALLY good care of this horn before they put it into storage many years ago. It plays awesome.... very in tune and a really big and dark low range. Just the way I like it.... I can safely say this is one of the very best sousaphones that I have ever played. How the hell did I get this lucky?

Are you sure you want to be leaning that up against the wall? At least put a blanket over the wall. It's be a shame to see all that hard work damage. By the way, NICE horn!!!

That wall has been painted and is not course at all, plus I set the horn against it VERY gently. The sun was going down and I wanted to get photos before I lost the light.

[Bandmaster]

The valves are a little worn...

As pretty as that plating job is, I still would bet that the valveset would come off and go back on (for a deluxe valve rebuild by Dave Secrist, etc.) with nearly no evidence...particularly if your carefully-selected top drawer tech had nothing more than a gold "brush plating" outfit. As much as you're enjoying the playing characteristics now, I assure you that if you are observing some valve wear at this time, your playing experience pleasure will improve to a significant % after a complete valve rebuild job.

Well, I should have said that there was a thick layer of black/brown grunge on the valves. I did my best to clean them but I could not get it all off. There is also some rust spots on them too, from sitting in storage for so many years (at least 40 or 50 years I have been told) I am sure. It appearently had lots of spit in the valves the last time it was put in the case before it was stored. There was a lot green crud (mineral deposits) in the bottom of the valve caps. The valves are fairly tight but a little air passes by them when you push the slides in, but I have seen much worse. And they still play really nice. I was thinking maybe all they need is to be replated and lapped in again. The valve casings look really nice and smooth inside, just the valves had buildup on them. I would hate to have solder slop on the horn from taking out and reinstalling the valve block. Can't it be done without taking the valve block off the horn? Is there somebody you could recommend in So Cal?

[KarlMarx]

Plein von interesting. Meine grandmere took une solche trunk aus le Gebündelten Stationaries für which Maitre Ostfläsk fjärtar tilsammans avec die chevals.

Le 1394 Gonn Katalog is auf le web frei å haben.

Är ta∂ inta merveilleux cum le TubenNetz esse interspational?

Carolus MarxAndBrotherhoodSineGrouchos

[Joe Baker]

You asked how much value the gold plating added, and no real experts have chimed in; but we've read here that the silver to plate a 4/4 tuba is about 6-8 ounces. This ain't no 4/4 tuba, but then again gold plating over silver is probably thinner than silver plating, so let's guess that there are perhaps 4 ounces of gold. This morning's price for gold is right at $422 per ounce, so it seems likely to me that the gold itself is worth AT LEAST about $1700.

I don't remember ever being so envious of someone's sousaphone! You've won the E-Bay lottery, so enjoy that sucker -- or, sell it for $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to a collector and get a FEW great horns!
__________________________
Joe Baker, who is imagining Bloke's Buescher helicon in gold...

[cjk]

How about a satin silver + gold matching mouthpiece?

[Joe Baker]

Whoa, Nelly!!! That is COOL!!!

Where can one obtain such a mouthpiece? And at what cost?
_______________________
Joe Baker, who probably won't actually buy one, but is intrigued...

[cjk]

I found it here when I was curious about Faxx mouthpieces and was poking around:

http://www.mouthpieceexpress.com/pages/ ... ating.html

I have to wonder how lousy the satin silver shank will look after awhile.

"wait until you see the $93,000 helicon when it comes back..."

Buescher??? You sure that thing's not a Conn model 401k ??

[Bandmaster]

How about a satin silver + gold matching mouthpiece?

Now if this was a gold and satin silver original Conn Helleburg mouthpiece, that would be a PERFECT match to my sousaphone.

[Bandmaster]

I just now thought of this question, why it took me so I'll never know....

Where would I go or who could I ask to get an appraisal of this sousaphone's "real" or "replacement" value? Say I want to insure it, how much insurance would I buy?

In fact.... what about insurance? How many tuba players insure their horns? After all, some of them almost cost as much cars, sometimes more!!!

[Mikelynch]

I'd be interested in the specifics of how you went about the cleaning process. You're cleaning of that horn is better than any on other gold plated horn that I have seen.

Thanks,
Mike

[Captain Sousie]

I go through state farm and I would highly recommend insuring your horn through your insurance agent. If you are a pro player, it will cost more but it is worth it. Have your agent suggest where to have it appraised. Also, go to a few of your local repair-persons and ask them to give you an estimate. More than one appraisal will yeild the best price.

Good luck and that satin gold piece sounds just too cool.
Sousie