Miraphone 186 vs. others

[Water Music]

Maybe for a high school if you really have the money, you shold get the 4 valve BBb 186. I really don't feel the kids will need the 5th, unless they have some really low passages, which they probably don't.

But I find the 4 valve BBb Jupiter Tuba to be very good horns for the right price. Right size, right price, a nice sound and a good Tuba for a school.

[Dan Schultz]

Maybe for a high school if you really have the money, you shold get the 4 valve BBb 186.

I have to agree with Bloke... rotary horns are NOT the answer for middle and high school environments. I just finished working over four 186's that came out of a school band program. All of them had big problems with the linkage and rotor stems. Also, the bells do not hold up to the rigors of classroom situations. The problem isn't confined to only German horns, either... my local high school has several Yamaha YBB-641's that are barely five years old. All the rotor mechanisms are beat all to hell! All that being said, I'm not a big fan of front-action horns in classrooms, either. As much as I dislike the intonation and discomfort of the Yamaha top-loaders, they seem to hold up pretty well in a 'gorilla' environment.

[mTaUrBkA]

As much as I love my Mirafone 186.......I wouldn't go that way for a school horn. My school has a very VERY tired mirafone 186. It plays awful do to dirtyness and dents and abuse from previous players, but the rotors and linkage are all damaged. The valves are all at different levels. One of the two supports that hold the valve section up is missing as well, so the whoel valve section is quite bent. The bell also is quite beat up, and when you put a lot of air through it, the decorative rim vibrates and you hear the metal of the decoration vibrate against the metal of the bell. My personal 186's bell is sturdy, but the school horn is like tin foil. It doesn't help that my school doesn't have tuba cases! Even if you don't wanna spend the cash, get hard cases for the horns to make the life longer and havign less repairs. If it's middle school, wheels on the case wouldn't be a bad idea ever.

In middle school I played a Cerveny that was a 186 copy, but it was a little smaller. It was pretty sturdy, If the kids will take care of the horns, you might want to consider them. Also, the mirafone 186 might be too tall for a lot of middle schoolers to reach. When I got my 186 in 8th grade I had to sit on a phone book.....and I was pretty tall compared to class mates.

[Lew]

What would you recommend for these kids?

Made in Usa: King 2341 BBb tuba - lacquer finish.

They play great/sound great. As these are piston tubas (the only tubas for "kids") when they (inevitably) are knocked over, there will be no rotor stems to ultimately be bent - and no needed prayers that dicey rotor stem repairs will proceed without problems.

When huge dents are collected, unsoldering the sections and repairing these lacquered instruments will not result in the ruination of an expensive silver plate finish.

If you buy a bunch of tubas (like four), you will be able to buy at least one extra King tuba vs. the same money spent on Miraphone 186 tubas...and the King 2341 tubas will have a fatter sound than the Miraphone 186 tuba with equally-good intonation.

And they have detachable valve sections and leadpipes that can be removed by unscrewing a few screws, making repairs that much easier.

[tofu]

definitely lacquer finish - cheaper & will look better over time because kids aren't going to bother to polish it.

Miraphone 186 or King 2341

I have the new 2341 - excellent horn for the money -- traditional American sound -- but to be honest they vary a lot from one horn to the next on how they play & the fit/finish suck.

Large bells (20) inch and thin metal make them magnets for dents. They are significantly less money than Miraphone. Bracing nowhere as good as the 186. I also have little faith in UMI being able to supply parts years down the line.

Miraphone is renown for supplying parts for horrns that they long ago ceased to make. Fit and finish are excellent and no one makes horns that play the same from one example to the next as well as Miraphone does. Typical German sound and excellent resale value.

Rotors vs. Pistons

Pistons can handle more abuse, but rotors are easier for smaller hands to play. I think this is important if you expect to have girls playing tuba and that is becoming more and more prevalent these days.

I think either horn would work and provide years of good service.

Good Luck!

[Dan Schultz]

Miraphone is renown for supplying parts for horrns that they long ago ceased to make.

They sure do supply parts! Have you priced a new bell for a 186 lately? The supposed 'sole' parts source in the US quote me $915 for the bell and an additional $250 to buff and lacquer it!

[prototypedenNIS]

What would you recommend for these kids?

my advice, one of my most common bits of advice as a tech
NOT AMATI/CERVENY!

you may save some money up front on them, but you'll spend it all taking the dents out of a horn with bad valves that never sounded/tuned that great anyway.

[Dan Schultz]

Dan, You're correct about the piston stems taking less abuse on a top-action piston tuba....... So...I'm in favor of front-action piston tubas because:

- Piston/casing repairs are, in general, easier than rotor/linkage repairs.

OH YES! I agree with you 100% on the repairs aspect.

[TubaRay]

However... one thing's for certain... if a parent had to shell out $2,500 for a euphonium or $5,000 for a tuba... you can bet your sweet a** I would see less of them come through the shop for major repairs.

Now that's the truth!!!

[Donn]

However... one thing's for certain... if a parent had to shell out $2,500 for a euphonium or $5,000 for a tuba... you can bet your sweet a** I would see less of them come through the shop for major repairs.

You would see fewer of them anywhere. It might stimulate research into alternate materials, though, like all-plastic disposable tubas etc.

[windshieldbug]

It might stimulate research into alternate materials, though, like all-plastic disposable tubas

I think they call those "sousaphones", now...

[Rick Denney]

SELDOM DO THEY SAY "THE HORN IS ONLY TWO YEARS OLD"....AND THEY NEVER SEEM TO DESCRIBE THESE BATTERED OLD HORNS AS 30-40 YEARS OLD.

I suppose you mean by this that they are complaining that modern kids are somehow more careless than we were when we were that age.

I believe this is true, and can be supported in a range of ways, without shouting. I've heard from all different directions how modern kids have little respect for property including property not theirs compared with kids from 30 or 40 years ago.

Personally, I think band kids ought to be responsible to return instrument loaned to them by their schools in the same condition they received them. That way, it would be the parents paying the techs instead of the taxpayers. This is how it's done when kids rent instruments from the private sector.

Any kid in a high school should be grateful that the school provides as good an instrument as a King 2341. My big-city rich suburban school provided me a plastic King sousaphone. Not only did I return it in the condition as borrowed, but I painted our other plastic sousaphones (which were painted a horrible gold) to match the white King.

But, back to your post: How do you expect repair "weenies" to have any influence at all on students or band directors?

Rick "thinking even conscientious band directors have little control over students" Denney

[trseaman]

I don't mean to drive business away from local shops or say that it's okay to do work on your own horn, but...

I had a thought last week that a "basic repair class" in high school might teach kids to be nicer to their horns as well as inspiring future repair techs. It wouldn't be possible in all schools but in larger cities it might work...

[mTaUrBkA]

What would you recommend for these kids?

my advice, one of my most common bits of advice as a tech
NOT AMATI/CERVENY!

you may save some money up front on them, but you'll spend it all taking the dents out of a horn with bad valves that never sounded/tuned that great anyway.

The Cerveny I played in middle school played well, but maybe at my age I couldn't really tell. At the time I was pleased with it though! The only place that had dents was the bottom bow. When I played it, it was about 4 years old, and there were only few dents in the bottom bow. If your a tech, you probably have a better idea though. Seeing other students, the issue is most kids don't care and jsut beat the crap out of the horns!

[Alex F]

My teacher purchased a Jupiter 582 for his students to use. I've handled it and it seems to be a solidly built horn with a decent sound, although a bit on the heavy side.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the VMI 2103. I have one of these. Yes, it's a rotary valve horn but it's well built and the price is certainly less than what is charged for a 2341 or a 186.

[Dan Schultz]

It might stimulate research into alternate materials, though, like all-plastic disposable tubas

I think they call those "sousaphones", now...

[sloan]

Personally, I think band kids ought to be responsible to return instrument loaned to them by their schools in the same condition they received them.

Not good enough, Rick "thanks for the cold" Denney.

I'm about to end my stint as a band parent after 10 years in the lists. My personal policy was to always return the school-owned horn (and case) in BETTER condition than when it came home.

Of course, I only did that so that I would not feel guilty about never once spending a Friday night flipping burgers at the football game.

In our school system (it's rare, I know, so I don't expect this to work for anyone else) the kids end up paying AT LEAST as much for "band trips" as they would on a brand new instrument. Instead of maintaining a ragtag collection of "school horns", I think they ought to require every student to supply the instrument....and use the capital budget to pay for the "band trips".

Ken 'just 4 more months of High School Band Parents" Sloan

[TubaRay]

I'm about to end my stint as a band parent after 10 years in the lists. My personal policy was to always return the school-owned horn (and case) in BETTER condition than when it came home.

Troublemaker!

In our school system (it's rare, I know, so I don't expect this to work for anyone else the kids end up paying AT LEAST as much for "band trips" as they would on a brand new instrument. Instead of maintaining a ragtag collection of "school horns", I think they ought to require every student to supply the instrument....and use the capital budget to pay for the "band trips".

Radical!

Ken 'just 4 more months of High School Band Parents" Sloan

Congratulations!

[WilliamVance]

I have to agree with Bloke. King 2341's would be best for school use. Just make sure you get hard cases, make sure the students put them away EVERYDAY, sit the ENTIRE BAND down and tell them how important it is to respect the horns and having stands for the students to set the horns in during rehearsals couldn't hurt. I remember when we got second hand CONN 12J's in High School in very good condition from the local University my band director sat us all down and told us that we would be removed from the program if we did anything destructive to the horns. The previous King 1140's and OLD sousas were the but of a few jokes, such as friday night pizza in the bells of the horns found on monday morning. Oh, and percusionists throwing coins into the bells of the sousas. I can't believe the sousas were Pan americans and made it until 1996 at our school. I'm sure they are still in service as we sent them over to a "needy" school in the district that year.

[windshieldbug]

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Paint them.