Venting slides (not valves)

[DCottrell]

Has anyone considered having Amado waterkeys installed on tuning slide crooks strategically placed so that air can be released from a closed valve slide? You are compressing or decompressing the air as you push or pull the slide, not as you operate the valve. Placed where you would grab it easily, you could open the valve with slightly more finger pressure than you are already using to grip the tube. Furthermore, you don't have to drill holes in your valves, which is not an insignificant alteration. Also, the hole in the waterkey is larger than the hole used to vent valves, so air noise is less likely.An Amado waterkey has the advantage of not disturbing the inside profile of the tube on which it is placed, and, if properly maintained, is less hassle than a cork key needing replacement every so often.

Dave Cottrell, who is looking for excuses not to have to go out and shovel 16" of fresh powder on the driveway.

[Will]

I had that done a couple of years ago to the first valve slide to my 822. It works great. The guy who did the work actually recommended that over venting the valve. A friend of mine had the same thing done to his 822 years before I did.

<img src="http://i1.tinypic.com/no7n2w.jpg" width=600>

[Dan Schultz]

WOW! Is that an electric tuba?... or is someone getting ready to run the vacuum?

[Kevin Hendrick]

Will "who can't figure out how to shrink the size of the pics on his computer"

The easiest way is to use HTML and set the size.

Code: Select all

<img src="http://where.ever/me.jpg" width=400>

would scale the image to be 400 pixels wide.

Make sure the "Disable HTML in this post" box is NOT checked.

... and it comes out looking like this (at 400 pixel width):

<img src="http://i1.tinypic.com/nnjlzn.jpg" width=400>

If you'd prefer 200 pixel width:

<img src="http://i1.tinypic.com/nnjlzn.jpg" width=200>

... or 600:

<img src="http://i1.tinypic.com/nnjlzn.jpg" width=600>

[Kevin Hendrick]

I saw Chris Olka a few months back and he moved the first valve slide so much, I thought I was at a trombone concerto.

Good for him! He's obviously familiar enough with his instrument to know what he needs to do to play it in tune with a good sound, and is willing to do it (in public, no less!).

Sadly, most of his students have picked up this same affect.

Being willing to do what's necessary to play in tune with a good sound is sad?

The question here seems to be: which is more important, how you look or how you sound? (just in case it's not obvious, I'm with the "how you sound" group )

[Will]

Thanks for the tip on the pic.

My F# and G in the staff are usually flat when my first valve slide is pulled out, which is required for my Bb to play in tune. Luckily I don't have to move slides around much, except my 5th valve slide when I play in the basement register. That's where the slide crook comes in handy.

<img src="http://i1.tinypic.com/no82m0.jpg" width=600>

[windshieldbug]

You guys should learn to leave the slide alone

No offense, but I'm sure glad I don't have to play with YOU

[MartyNeilan]

Obviously the length of the slide is going to be a factor, but what do you actually get? +/- 10 cents?
How much variation in cents is available from manipulation of the embouchure?
Wouldn't this actually be a much more efficient vehicle for altering the pitch of a tone?

My rotary 2155 came from the factory with both a first and second valve trigger. Each one has a range of around 20 cents, and they are unfortunately very necessary.
Some horns (particularly piston BATs) are much easier to lip than others. Personally, I find that when I try to lip anything 10 cents or greater the tone tends to suffer. I was always taught to blow in the center of the note, and by some fairly well-known teachers. Lipping notes up tends to have an even greater degradation on tone. The exception was my big Martin, which I could lip +- 20 cents and it would still sound about the same.
FWIW, I never have to move slides on my F tuba, but it has six valves (and I have to be in shape on it.)

[quinterbourne]

You guys should learn to leave the slide alone. I saw Chris Olka a few months back and he moved the first valve slide so much, I thought I was at a trombone concerto.

People move slides to play in tune. If you don't play in tune, don't expect to keep a gig for very long. People listen to the tuba for intonation, it's our job to do whatever is necessary to play in tune, even if that means playing slide-tuba.

Sadly, most of his students have picked up this same affect.

Oh no, they play in tune, too?

How much variation can actually be achieved through manipulation of any given slide?

Enough to play the pitch in tune.

Obviously the length of the slide is going to be a factor, but what do you actually get? +/- 10 cents?

What you actually get is a note in tune, instead of one out of tune.

Is this really noticable when playing a relatively fast passage?

Is playing a fast passage out of tune preferable to playing a fast passage in tune? Sure, it is less important to manipulate the slide for a fast passage than longer notes, but why not aspire for perfection?

What is the actual time factor involved in pulling the slide and noticing the effect?

When I manipulate my slide... the slide is pulled before the pitch occurs. The effect is noticed immediately.

How much variation in cents is available from manipulation of the embouchure?

Wouldn't this actually be a much more efficient vehicle for altering the pitch of a tone?

There is a great deal of variation in cents from manipulating the embouchure. I avoid embouchure manipulation because:

a) would be extremely difficult in a fast passage, a run of sixteenth notes and you'd have to lip one up, lip one down, lip one up, etc. It is much faster to manipulate the slide than it is to manipulate the embouchure.

b) when you manipulate the embouchure to bend the pitch you can affect your tone. What you want to do is play in the "centre of the pitch." This may be determined as the point in which the note is most resonant. Usually, this means that the note will be in tune. However, if it isn't... a lip bend will send the pitch off the "centre of the pitch" and the pitch will lose resonance. What you want to do instead is manipulate the slide so you keep the centre of the pitch.

EXAMPLE:
My 2nd line Bb in bass clef (on my C tuba) is a good 8-10 cents sharp. I can lip it down, but then the note sounds stuffy and doesn't project/resonate well at all. When I play the pitch (10 cents sharp) the note sounds the best. Now, when I pull my 1st tuning slide out a couple inches... the pitch maintains the same excellent sound quality, and is in tune.

* Sure some people think it looks silly manipulating the slides. Some people may joke and whatnot. Keep in mind that by doing this you are sounding better than you would otherwise, and that's all that matters. If you keep your appearance at a higher priority than the quality of your playing you will never be a top notch player.

[djwesp]

You guys should learn to leave the slide alone. I saw Chris Olka a few months back and he moved the first valve slide so much, I thought I was at a trombone concerto.

People move slides to play in tune. If you don't play in tune, don't expect to keep a gig for very long. People listen to the tuba for intonation, it's our job to do whatever is necessary to play in tune, even if that means playing slide-tuba.

Sadly, most of his students have picked up this same affect.

Oh no, they play in tune, too?

How much variation can actually be achieved through manipulation of any given slide?

Enough to play the pitch in tune.

Obviously the length of the slide is going to be a factor, but what do you actually get? +/- 10 cents?

What you actually get is a note in tune, instead of one out of tune.

Is this really noticable when playing a relatively fast passage?

Is playing a fast passage out of tune preferable to playing a fast passage in tune? Sure, it is less important to manipulate the slide for a fast passage than longer notes, but why not aspire for perfection?

What is the actual time factor involved in pulling the slide and noticing the effect?

When I manipulate my slide... the slide is pulled before the pitch occurs. The effect is noticed immediately.

How much variation in cents is available from manipulation of the embouchure?

Wouldn't this actually be a much more efficient vehicle for altering the pitch of a tone?

There is a great deal of variation in cents from manipulating the embouchure. I avoid embouchure manipulation because:

a) would be extremely difficult in a fast passage, a run of sixteenth notes and you'd have to lip one up, lip one down, lip one up, etc. It is much faster to manipulate the slide than it is to manipulate the embouchure.

b) when you manipulate the embouchure to bend the pitch you can affect your tone. What you want to do is play in the "centre of the pitch." This may be determined as the point in which the note is most resonant. Usually, this means that the note will be in tune. However, if it isn't... a lip bend will send the pitch off the "centre of the pitch" and the pitch will lose resonance. What you want to do instead is manipulate the slide so you keep the centre of the pitch.

EXAMPLE:
My 2nd line Bb in bass clef (on my C tuba) is a good 8-10 cents sharp. I can lip it down, but then the note sounds stuffy and doesn't project/resonate well at all. When I play the pitch (10 cents sharp) the note sounds the best. Now, when I pull my 1st tuning slide out a couple inches... the pitch maintains the same excellent sound quality, and is in tune.

* Sure some people think it looks silly manipulating the slides. Some people may joke and whatnot. Keep in mind that by doing this you are sounding better than you would otherwise, and that's all that matters. If you keep your appearance at a higher priority than the quality of your playing you will never be a top notch player.

Take a very deep breath.... and exhale....


Okay, I understand the validity of all of these posts... but personally i tend to manipulate the slides as little as possible.... remember that tuba playing invovles a lot more of the player and a lot less of the tuba than we tend to think.

I know that if the "player in my head" as Jacobs/Sheridan refer to is on target, the horn usually follows---regardless of manipulation of the slide.

[djwesp]

if you're good then you dont need slides.....woot....woot....hot....hot....you're not...

that might be a stretch...lol

[Rick Denney]

The questions for Rick Denney:

How much variation can actually be achieved through manipulation of any given slide?

An open BBb tuba gives you about one cent of pitch change for each 1/16th inch of pull. 10 cents is about 5/8".

My Miraphone has a flat fifth partial (like all Miraphones), and I push the first valve in to play C on the staff about 1-1/2". That's about 25 cents.

Art Hovey has the arithmetic of this on the web:

http://www.geocities.com/galvanized.geo ... hpull.html

On the subject of whether one should pull, you'll hear different answers. I know very fine players who never pull, and very fine players who seem to adjust every note. Most of the fine players I know are in the middle of those extremes. What matters is what comes out of the bell. If you can play in tune with all the notes having their most resonant sound without slide manipulation, then you should do that.

In my own case, I don't do that much slide pulling. And that practice reveals my rules on the topic:

1. If you pull slides just because you think it looks cool, then stop.

2. If you pull slides because you have learned the slide position required for every note based on your tuner, then stop.

3. If you pull slides to provide perfect intonation with your ensembles while still providing the optimal sound, then continue.

My Rule 2 will upset some people, but I think it's the rare ensemble that plays an equal-tempered scale. It sounds wrong on many chords, and it's far more important to be in tune with the ensemble than to conform to a tuning system that will sound wrong in many cases. The equal tempering measured by the tuner is a compromise tuning for a piano that has no real-time pitch adjustment and that must be able to play in all keys equally well. (Even then, pianos are not tuned to equal temperament completely.) What matters is that the pitches of the chord line up. A fabulous sound when played by itself will be completely negated if it doesn't resonate in the chord being played by the ensemble.

Since my pitch sense is pretty bad (typical of most hobbyists), and since most of the people in my ensemble aren't much better, it would be pretty hard for me to get past Rule 1 above. Since Rule 3 is for me the only justification to move slides, and since my pitch hearing isn't good enough to do it, I don't move my slides much. I fix obvious problems with my embouchure, figuring that an in-tune sound that isn't fully resonant is better than an out-of-tune sound that is. But I find that I'm usually out of tune in the first place because my sound isn't where it's supposed to be.

Rick "who figures Chris Olka to be following Rule 3" Denney

[windshieldbug]

How much variation can actually be achieved through manipulation of any given slide?

An open BBb tuba gives you about one cent of pitch change for each 1/16th inch of pull. 10 cents is about 5/8".

My Miraphone has a flat fifth partial (like all Miraphones), and I push the first valve in to play C on the staff about 1-1/2". That's about 25 cents.

Mike "emphasizing the obvious" Keller

[Will]

I do it simply when it needs to be done.

[iiipopes]

Now, I am blessed with a great sense of pitch. Not perfect pitch, but the ability to play in tune from years of practice applied to good God-given ears. And since I like all thing British and have a pinky that is over 3 cm shorter than the rest of my fingers, I play as my main instrument a Besson BBb 3-valve comp. Having played all sorts of horns, and wrestled with some with ridiculous intonation as well as other great horns through the years, I can positively state that if you don't need any notes below the low 123 E natural, and have problems with discerning pitch, I highly recommend finding a late 60's to mid 70's Besson like mine, because with the comp loops the intonation is just #### near perfect. Depending on the horn, you may have to pull one or more of the slides once to get the relative intonation set, but once you do, it is good to go. The only time I pull a slide is my 3rd all the way to get the occasional low Eb at the end of a big piece in that key. Okay, low C and B natural are somewhat stuffy, but just blow through it.

[Chuck(G)]

My Miraphone has a flat fifth partial (like all Miraphones), and I push the first valve in to play C on the staff about 1-1/2". That's about 25 cents.

I dunno--that's a big push--and darned hard to do quickly. I might be looking for alternate fingerings if I were up against a note that far out. How do 13 or 4 work?

I thought the idea of slide pulling was for tone, not pitch--a note played where the instrument's tuning is centered sounds better than when the same note is played off-center. But regardless, the note should be played in pitch.

[tubeast]

Last year I sat down with a tuner and tried to figure out alternate fingerings and 4th valve slide positions on my CC horn.
(4th valve is the only slide easily accessible)
F# below the staff (usually 24) sounds sharp, 235 sounds better (and in tune).
I didn´t even try to memorise slide positions, so when we had to play 20 bars of SLOW LOW melody (each note about 2 bars) I just wrote down slide positions for every note.
Once I figured I had to redo those markings on a daily basis to be in tune with the other guys, I parted with that idea.
Now there are three positions: all the way in, pulled an inch, and pulled 2 inches. I only use these where it really matters (i.e. obvious notes requiring too hard work otherwise).

On the alternate fingerings: unless it´s a real slow passage, I realized I hurt my playing by a break in rhythm (because of fingerings far off what muscle memory tells me),
and more so than I hurt it by playing slightly out of tune or with strong lipping.

I´m aware I probably couldn´t live with that if I made a living with the horn.

[Allen]

It does seem that the different opinions and approaches expressed here are based on players' different backgrounds and differing types of talent.

For example, I tend to use alternative fingerings to solve problems of pitch or rapid passages (such as trills). Why? I have spent many more years playing woodwind instruments than tuba. Woodwind technique relies heavily on alternative fingerings. This contributes to my attitude that brass instrument fingerings are simple. I note that players with a pure brass background have a different view on fingerings (and they are generally better than I am at some other aspects of tuba playing).

I manipulate my first valve slide sometimes. [I had the valve vented and the slide lapped for easy movement.] I have a compromise setting for the first valve slide that allows me to play in tune (with a bit of lipping up or down). Mostly, I leave the slide alone. However, when I am playing longer and/or louder notes, some slide pushing or pulling enables me to sound better by staying in the center of resonance for all notes. Therefore, I could say that I don't manipulate slides to be in tune; I do it to improve my sound (and also to save working so hard to be in tune).

I agree with Rick Denney's comment about playing really in tune being superior to merely playing in equal temperament. I would add that playing in equal temperament would be a vast improvement for some ensembles! We also have to keep in mind that some jazz chords and modern harmonies require equal temperament to make any sense.

Put me down as in favor of multiple approaches to playing the tuba.

Cheers,
Allen Walker

[quinterbourne]

2. If you pull slides because you have learned the slide position required for every note based on your tuner, then stop.

3. If you pull slides to provide perfect intonation with your ensembles while still providing the optimal sound, then continue.

My Rule 2 will upset some people, but I think it's the rare ensemble that plays an equal-tempered scale. It sounds wrong on many chords, and it's far more important to be in tune with the ensemble than to conform to a tuning system that will sound wrong in many cases. The equal tempering measured by the tuner is a compromise tuning for a piano that has no real-time pitch adjustment and that must be able to play in all keys equally well. (Even then, pianos are not tuned to equal temperament completely.) What matters is that the pitches of the chord line up. A fabulous sound when played by itself will be completely negated if it doesn't resonate in the chord being played by the ensemble.

I agree, to a point. As musicians, it is better to play in tune with the ensemble than to play in tune with a tuner. However, as tuba players, we set the pitch for most of the groups that we play in. People listen to us, primarily, to find and adjust their pitch. Usually we are on the root of a chord, so we don't need to think about playing the third in a major chord a little lower than usual. In my opinion, it is our responsibility to set the pitch dead on and let everyone else tune to us... I'm not trying to make this an arrogant statement.

I set my slide to where the note is in tune with the tuner... then I use my embouchure to make any adjustments based on the pitch of the group (or just to make the note speak better in the chord). So, I think a combination of Rick Denney's 2nd and 3rd rules may be a good way of going about things.

[tofu]

Now, I am blessed with a great sense of pitch. Not perfect pitch, but the ability to play in tune from years of practice applied to good God-given ears. And since I like all thing British and have a pinky that is over 3 cm shorter than the rest of my fingers, I play as my main instrument a Besson BBb 3-valve comp. Having played all sorts of horns, and wrestled with some with ridiculous intonation as well as other great horns through the years, I can positively state that if you don't need any notes below the low 123 E natural, and have problems with discerning pitch, I highly recommend finding a late 60's to mid 70's Besson like mine, because with the comp loops the intonation is just #### near perfect. Depending on the horn, you may have to pull one or more of the slides once to get the relative intonation set, but once you do, it is good to go. The only time I pull a slide is my 3rd all the way to get the occasional low Eb at the end of a big piece in that key. Okay, low C and B natural are somewhat stuffy, but just blow through it.

Just out of college I bought a 10 year old Bessson New Standard 3-valve comp because I had no money and it was cheap. I didn't even know it was a comp but I was amazed how in tune the horn was. For years afterward folks in ensembles would mention how in tune I played. I thought it was me until I bought the first of several additional non-comp horns and learned it was the Besson NOT me that was in tune.

If you can put up with a couple of quirks they really are good horns and think schools that want to play more in tune should buy the old well built ones and have them rebuilt. That's what I did and I've gotten 26 years out of a horn that cost me to buy and have a complete like new rebuild (including silver plating) by Allied of less than $2000. For the cost of 2 new Miraphone 186's a school could buy and rebuild 4 Besson vintage early 70's BBb comp's figuring the cost to buy and do a play rebuild. You would also end up with a horn better able to withstand school abuse in my opinion.