Venting slides (not valves)

[Rick Denney]

I dunno--that's a big push--and darned hard to do quickly. I might be looking for alternate fingerings if I were up against a note that far out. How do 13 or 4 work?

I thought the idea of slide pulling was for tone, not pitch--a note played where the instrument's tuning is centered sounds better than when the same note is played off-center. But regardless, the note should be played in pitch.

(Second part full size so others can read it, too.)

That's a pretty big push, but not that big, and my slide is fast. I do it for the reason you mention, so that a sustained C will be in tune (as I can make it) and also sound good (as I can make it).

I will use alternate fingerings sometimes, too. On the other hand, my right hand has learned one basic set of pattern for BBb, and I have three BBb tubas. The left hand can be programmed for particular instruments more easily.

But I claim no authority on the topic, other than what I do, and how much pull has how much effect on pitch.

Rick "who makes no pretense" Denney

[Rick Denney]

However, as tuba players, we set the pitch for most of the groups that we play in.

Don't I wish that were true.

But what if I'm playing in a tuba quartet? Or playing the third of the chord or a leading tone? Those notes cannot be tuned according to any particular temperament and resonate in their chords. When I play in brass quintet, I tune to make the quintet sound good. I don't expect others to come to me; after all, I may be wrong. And they may ignore my lead.

Rick "who plays in the real world of hobbyists and amateurs" Denney

[iiipopes]

Indeed, especially with natural major thirds, which are noticably flat compared to the equally tempered thirds (and vice versa for minor sixths). Or should I say equally tempered thirds are sharp enough to grate on the ears but for the 20th & 21st century music pounding them at us until our ears have been desensitized to some degree.

[windshieldbug]

And they may ignore my lead

ESPECIALLY if they're strings...

[Chuck(G)]

Or should I say equally tempered thirds are sharp enough to grate on the ears but for the 20th & 21st century music pounding them at us until our ears have been desensitized to some degree.

I'd go a bit further and say that perfect thirds are so foreign to the average ear that their sound takes some getting used to, particularly on keyboard instruments. Our modern ears accept the equal-temperament "blur" of beats on a third as gospel and we tend to expect them to sound uniformly bad.

[Allen]

Or should I say equally tempered thirds are sharp enough to grate on the ears but for the 20th & 21st century music pounding them at us until our ears have been desensitized to some degree.

I'd go a bit further and say that perfect thirds are so foreign to the average ear that their sound takes some getting used to, particularly on keyboard instruments. Our modern ears accept the equal-temperament "blur" of beats on a third as gospel and we tend to expect them to sound uniformly bad.

That reminds me of two things. One is trying to explain to a pianist why non-keyboard players adjust pitch to tune chords. The response: "Why don't they just play the standard pitches?"

Another happened years ago. A new organ (by Fisk) was installed in a Boston church. The instrument was designed and tuned according to Baroque historical principles. A music critic for The Boston Globe wrote a review of the inaugural concert. He praised the music, but, in a frosty tone said that "the organ should be given a thorough tuning before it is played in public again." A week later, the same critic, in a somewhat red-faced article, described the education he had just received concerning mean-tone tuning. [The mean-tone schemes have perfectly-tuned major thirds for the most common keys.]

Questions occur to me: How many tuning schemes are there? Is it possible that the number of tuning schemes equals the number of musicians?

Cheers,
Allen Walker

[windshieldbug]

Questions occur to me: How many tuning schemes are there?

For a start, for example, see: Tuning Systems By: Catherine Schmidt-Jones

[Matt G]

Wow, about as off-topic as I have ever seen.

I have seen Amado keys on slides. Perfectly acceptable way of "venting" a slide. Less possible risk than venting a valve.

As far as Chirs Olka. One of the most in-tune players you will ever hear. Period. End of argument. Moving slides is a neccesity for him to play in tune with the best sound possible. As far as knowing the difference between root and harmonic, he has that figured out also.

For those of you that think is is some sort of "psuedo-science" and that it takes too much effort to pull slides, then it sounds like an excuse to be lazy. If you can achieve perfect pitch and sound without moving slides, bravo. Otherwise, this effort becomes routine with proper practice.

Oh, and what about those trumpet players with those first vavle saddles and third valve rings. What do they know?

[Chuck(G)]

Questions occur to me: How many tuning schemes are there? Is it possible that the number of tuning schemes equals the number of musicians?

Open or closed octaves? How many intervals per octave?

Here are few historical systems to get you started:

http://www.kirnberger.fsnet.co.uk/

But I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that a new tuning system is being invented every few months. The advent of personal computers and the microtonal movement has made for a real explosion in material. Have a look at Scala:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/index.html

Note that it comes with about 3000 scales to play around with. A very neat feature is the ability of Scala to "re tune" existing MIDI files.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/scalesdir.txt

[quinterbourne]

Wow, about as off-topic as I have ever seen.

Then you haven't really seen that many posts here have you?

[Chuck(G)]

Oh, and what about those trumpet players with those first vavle saddles and third valve rings. What do they know?

Point taken, Matt! When are you going to have those extra valves removed from your horn? 1st and 3rd slide triggers ought to do what you need.

[windshieldbug]

[iiipopes]

Oh, and what about those trumpet players with those first vavle saddles and third valve rings. What do they know?

Point taken, Matt! When are you going to have those extra valves removed from your horn? 1st and 3rd slide triggers ought to do what you need.

Or comp loops. Hi, Ho, Besson...Away!!!!! (cue theme...)

[TubaRay]

[Hi, Ho, Besson...Away!!!!! (cue theme...)

To the dump! To the dump! To the dump, dump, dump!!!

[Matt G]

Wow, about as off-topic as I have ever seen.

Then you haven't really seen that many posts here have you?

I have seen a lot.

Just been staying out of the tubenet a little more recently.

Look under my avatar and then under yours.

[windshieldbug]

Saddles, Trigger, off-topic topics, good natured kidding taken seriously, what could be more TubeNet?

[Philip Jensen]

On my BBb horn, the G at the top of the staff has always been a bit problematic. Always a little hard to nail. On this horn, I can mash down just about any fingering I want and get something withing 15 cents of the G. Unfortunately everything is about 15 cents off one way or the other.

As I've been taking lessons and getting better I find myself less and less tolerant of intonation issues. I've gone from a non-slide puller to a slide puller, (only for 3 notes now, debating a 4th). I've even got the vented first valve to prove it Now when I use 1,2 for the top G in conjuction with a slide pull, the G slots great with a vibrant sound. Alternative fingerings don't work well on this horn, but they do on my Eb

For me, I can really feel the difference. It is like someone turns on a resonance amplifier comparing pulled vs non-pulled

[iiipopes]

[Hi, Ho, Besson...Away!!!!! (cue theme...)

To the dump! To the dump! To the dump, dump, dump!!!

You haven't heard my Besson. In my community band there are the usual assortment of 2 Miraphones, East German "Star" stencil, Conn, King, another Besson non-comp, and occasionally others. Mine is the one that gets the compliments for tone and musicality.

[Chuck(G)]

Mine is the one that gets the compliments for tone and musicality.

You've just discovered the Philosopher's Stone of tubadom, evidently! Where can I buy a musical tuba?


(The guy sitting next to me has a Musica and doesn't know what the 'ell the factory did with the last letter...)

[Rick Denney]

Point taken, Matt! When are you going to have those extra valves removed from your horn? 1st and 3rd slide triggers ought to do what you need.

When trumpet players have to routinely play in the octave above their fundamental.

But let's face it: Playing in tune in all situations is an objective. Changing the length of the instrument is but one strategy. Changing the embouchure is another strategy. Within the strategy of changing the length of the instrument, there are a range of tactics. Some use automatic compensation, others adjust slides, and still others use alternate fingerings. Meeting the objective may require both strategies and several tactics.

My rules were intended to dissuade someone from adjusting pitch (by whatever means) without expressly connecting it to the objective of playing in tune in the given situation. Only (some)other tuba players will care what tactic a given player uses in a given situation to achieve the objective, but all musicians will know it if the objective is not met.

Rick "always in favor of doing things on purpose" Denney