UncleBeer wrote:Ach, Roger: don't mind the soreheads. I find your posts interesting and well informed!
I agree!
tofu wrote:
I hope Roger you keep posting. I too find the posts of folks like yourself
and Lee Stopher to be both interesting & insightful. I like to think that
as an adult I'm able to decipher what is strictly self promotion or just a sales pitch and I'm not implying that you do either.
Absolutely!
tofu wrote:
A good sales person is looking to fulfill the needs of his customers in the best possible way - not sell him something that doesn't meet his needs both from a use and price perspective. A burned customer doesn't return and doesn't spread the gospel about your services. Not really going to be helpful to your future business if you know what I mean.
A good salesperson should know his products better than anyone. Who better to explain a product (like a tuba) to us than this.
!La verdad!
tofu wrote:
It seems to me this board has been really fortunate to have both excellent representatives of sellers of instruments, manufacturer reps, and excellent professional players like Allan Baer posting. There are less and less of these folks posting these days because it seems there is always somebody getting their shorts tied up in knots because they infer some evil "SALE" intent in a post.
Jens Bjorn Larson has the prototype of the Thor Meinl Weston tuba. He loaned it to one of his students for two weeks to prepare for an audition and his student won the audition on this instrument. Hell - it's not even in production yet! It's a matter of trust in the equipment, confidence in your ability to convey all of your talents through the instrument, with the instrument not getting in the way of the music that you bring to the situation. Other than that it's just a tool.
Would the master carpenter use a $0.99 hammer from the discount bin? Probably not - he will use the one that best fits his hand and has the proper weight that will not cause him to bend a lot of nails and drive up his costs.
The more the horn complements the way you play, the less the horn gets in the way of what you are trying to do.
JCalkin wrote:[T]here are two new tubas on the market that are "capable of winning auditions."
That's the sizzle that sells the steak. Imagine all the images that get created in the buyers' minds. Many buyers get a vicarious thrill in visualizing their children's success.
Sounds better than "Approved by band directors," the slogan of one *bay seller of far-east instruments.
I just cannot say enough good things about some band instruments.
Dean E
[S]tudy politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy . . . in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry [and] music. . . . John Adams (1780)
I don't know... This idea baffles me... A perfect tuba will make you a perfect player? I don't think so.
DeanE's phrase about the "sizzle that sells the steak" made me think about steak. If I buy a perfect steak from my butcher, I can still make the steak bad, even if I am a good cook.
TubaBluba's comment about the Conn 12 J not making an audition isn't true either. I have seen it happen... though it was quite a few years ago.
No, the only thing that is going to win an audition is talent, work, and doing what they ask you to do.
________________________________________________________
You only have one chance to make a first impression. Don't blow it.
ok, let's put this to rest.Roger has given me advice on several ocasions over the phone though i've yet to buy anything from him(though i did buy a used yfb 621 from charlie a few years back) both times i called him about f tubas he told me to buy the used ones i had found from individuals and advised me to sell my old f myself(which i did for considerably more than he could offer wholesale). Roger is a stand up guy.It's ok to be a salesman,as long as your're honest and take care of your customer.We all know only a couple people per year are gonna with these orchestra jobs.If someone wants to spend 30k on horns and 100k on education in this pursuit,more power to them.We are tuba enthusiasts and enjoy learning about the new models.It is the buyer's sole responsibility to determing which horn to buy,not the salesman(though Roger,Lee,Matt,and Mr. Fedderly are all concerned with the customer being satisfied).As long as the salesman is not lying, it is 100% up to the buyer to make the decision.
Pensacola Symphony
Troy University-adjunct tuba instructor
Yamaha yfb621 with 16’’ bell,with blokepiece symphony
Eastman 6/4 with blokepiece symphony/profundo
DP wrote:Hey, what kind of tuba did Arnold Jacobs use to win his audition to Curtis?
My guess would be the best horn he could get his hands on that day (Eb with 4th valve taped down...now that is awsome. Thanks DP, I learned something new today). It doesn't matter if it's the sizzle or the steak. Not one of us are playing the horn we have because we think it will make us sound worse. There are infinite combinations of mouthpieces + horn + special tweaks to those horns and mouthpiecs. At the end of the day, no one knows what makes a committee pick one player over the next. I'm sure that in Philly this week the second place person didn't suck. With all things being equal (and yes, sometimes they are) your choice of equipment can be the deciding factor because maybe, just maybe, the tie breaking vote just liked the way the horn sounded. Arnold Jacobs may have had the ability to make any horn sound better, but no way could he make my old E.M. Winston sound like a York.
Last edited by Tubaryan12 on Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Marzan BBb
John Packer JP-274 euphonium
King 607F Posting and You
Sheesh. I see this argument all the time on photography forums.
A $10,000 Hasselblad does not a good photographer make. But even the best photographer can't make the plastic lens on a Holga sharp. If that photographer's artistic vision requires sharpness, then the Holga is utterly unsuitable. (This is not being an equipment freak. Ansel Adams and his colleagues formed Group f/64 precisely to make the artistic statement that photography should be sharp rather than attempt to reproduce the impressionistic renderings of the pictorial photographers of the day. For them, sharpness was an artistic statement about what photography should be.)
There is a certain tuba at a certain shop that was played in a certain orchestra for some time. The comment made by a representative at that shop was that the player just got tired of missing notes with it. It was too "wild".
Now, you miss a note because the tuba is wild during an audition for a professional orchestra position, and you won't win the audition. Period. There will be no forgiveness because you could not afford a tuba that is not so wild.
But we must make the distinction between an audition for a professional orchestra (or even for an adult amateur ensemble) and a student audition. In the former case, the player's ability to select an instrument that is suitable and that will blend with the group is part of what is being evaluated. If the performer is willing to risk accuracy and musicality by playing an instrument that is unbalanced (great sound but something else lacking, for example), then that person is willing to risk the perfection of the orchestra's sound in pursuit of personal esoterica. That's not a good recommendation for a professional, even in an artistic enterprise.
Teachers, on the other hand, have an obligation to evaluate the student separately from the instrument. The younger the student, the more important this is. Arnold Jacobs was 15 when he auditioned for Curtis. Does anyone truly believe that he sounded great, in absolute terms, on that Eb tuba with the fourth valve taped down? Of course not. But the teachers, being teachers and being good teachers, knew to listen for talent and ability, and to think "Wow! If he's that good on that horrible instrument, what can we make of him on a worthy instrument?"
But it's not the adult ensemble's job to make their members anything. Thus, the tools chosen by those desiring to play in adult groups is a consideration, if that group enforces an entry standard tested by an audition. How important that choice of instrument is in the minds of the evaluators depends on their artistic objectives. But the instrument that is too wild to permit accurate playing is not going to make it easy to get selected. Wrong notes never fit in the ensemble.
And even morons like me can have artistic objectives that are either enhanced or inhibited by choice of instrument.
Rick "who comes closer to his artistic objectives on his Holton than on his Miraphone, but who is still nowhere near as good as either" Denney
Many buyers get a vicarious thrill in visualizing their children's success. 
