Brit vs US placement of tubas/sousaphones parade formation

[tofu]

[iiipopes]

Yeah, what bloke said. In addition, the Brits have these slings as well as straps that basically hold the entire bottom of the tuba (now you know what that funny button on the bottom bow on a Besson is about!), against your body as well as support it around your neck, so it's not much different than a sousaphone on your shoulder.

So, since you can't vote twice, all I will say is that with function designed sousaphones having served admirably for over 125 years, and function designed slings & straps for Brit tubas, anyone who would make a high school person march with one of the "marching tubas" as touted by several manufacturers, headed by Dynasty, should be shot, his remains dismembered and scattered, and if anyone does find the remains, deprive the next of kin of the privilege of what remains are left of being buried on consecrated ground. Now, let me tell you how I really feel about "marching tubas...."

When I was in high school, (my college didn't have a football team) and a year in grad school, I marched with a sousaphone, and did all the moves you see now, including 3/4 and complete spins, etc., without any detrimental bell action. Actually, the flash of the polished bell coming back around front was more of a crowd pleaser than about anything we did.

Could you "dot the I" in Ohio with anything else? I think not.

Just try telling one of Her Majesty's finest that he has to risk scuffing that multi-thousand pound sterling bearskin hat with a shoulder tuba? Ha! Talk about getting back an ultimate "Sod off!"

BTW - if you have ever played a Besson sousaphone, you will know why they aren't used. There are only two kinds of sousaphones worth the trouble (because Martins are so rare and Reynolds Contempora, in a pinch, can substitute for Kings) Pre-cyborg Kings and Conns. Period. End of discussion. God bless the USA. God save the Queen.

[tofu]

[LoyalTubist]

The idea of the front facing bell was for recording not for marching! I told this to a newbie high school band director in the area and he about flipped!

Also, remember that Sousa didn't like the idea of making records, either. He thought it would drive his band out of business. I think it did.

[tofu]

[finnbogi]

I have heard that sousaphones catch the wind and are certainly not popular with British military bandsmen who have tried them.

I think this is the reason for why sousaphones have never been popular in Iceland either. Another reason is the fact that the origin of our band tradition is German/Danish.

[tubeast]

Just in case anybody is interested:
in Austria, tubas and oval tenor instruments (both pointing to the left) usually march in the far right line of the unit.
This way it´s not your section mate whose ear you bust.
Some (few) bands use euphoniums and have those march in the left line accordingly,
This applies to our rather small bands (about 40, 70 at the most), of course.
I have no clue if this concept would work with a band of 280.


How about this approach: have the huge band split into smaller units of maybe 60 people. Each one with their complete percussion-, brass-, and reeds sections.
The percussionists can theoretically play synchronized if they manage to stubbornly play by sight of the conductor. All other musicians could (again, theoretically) be assigned the nearest percussion section to concentrate on and play in time with. This way one might hope the whole band could play roughly in time without having to take into account the delay due to speed of sound. Plus, the crowd will have a chance of listening to the band and not just the section that passes them at a given moment.

Of course I trust that with decades of marching tradition, bands of more than a hundred will know how to deal with this. One has to be aware, though, that this type of thing often is done "just because", but not out of practicability.

[NickJones]

We try and go with this formation , seems to work...I know we are not the only band which does this

Row One - Trombones x5
Row Two - 3 Eb 2 Bb tubas
Row Three - 2 Euph 3 Baritones
Row Four - Perc 1 Bass Drum 2 Side Drum 1 Cymbal
Row Five - 2nd (x2) 3rd(x2) Cornet Repiano Cornet(x1)
Row Six - Flugel Horn x1 Horns x4
Row Seven - Solo Cornet Bench ( x4)Soprano(x1)

the little bump on the lower bow is for a tuba stand , most tubas would be carried with a strap in the rings located on the rear of the instrument

[LoyalTubist]

In the photos I recall I should clarify they were raincatchers and not Sousaphones.

Sousa would roll over in his grave if he heard you talk that way--calling the front-belled instruments sousaphones and, I'll quote you, "raincatchers... not Sousaphones."

You are going to have to explain this one to me. And to a lot of people on this site who are big fans of Sousa.

[LoyalTubist]

I should add... I have marched with about every kind of tuba you can think of. One of the US Army Bands I played with marched about half the time with Mirafone 186s! Actually, the sound is so much better. We had a general who said he didn't like the looks of tubas (he meant sousaphones). So, we didn't march with the instruments he thought of as tubas. I prefer marching with upright tubas--not for half-time shows. If you have the right kind of strap to position your upright tuba, it's actually more comfortable than a sousaphone!

As far as the question, why don't the British use sousaphones? It's simple. It's not their tradition. Some of the British military tuba players sometimes say they would rather play sousaphones but their minds change quickly when they get the chance to play one.

[Kevin Hendrick]

Sousa would roll over in his grave if he heard you talk that way--calling the front-belled instruments sousaphones and, I'll quote you, "raincatchers... not Sousaphones."

You are going to have to explain this one to me. And to a lot of people on this site who are big fans of Sousa.

That's for sure! Maybe we should call the front-belled ones windcatchers?

[tubeast]

LoyalTubist,

tofu´s remark made perfect sense to me. Tubas that wrap around your body and have a bell that is located obove the player´s head, pointing forward, are called Sousaphones, in modern language. This is the horn that comes to mind whenever the "S"-word is seen or heard, and it´s the instrument the salesman will retrieve from the stock if you asked for one.
"Recording Sousaphone" may be a more exact term, but it only makes sense if other Sousaphones (i.e. Raincatchers) are present or commonly used. AFAIK the latter are not seen or even available on a dayly basis, in fact I personally learned on this board that there were Sousaphones with bells pointing up.

I prefer marching upright tubas too, BTW. The helicon will rest on ONE spot on my left shoulder, which will hurt eventually.
There´s only one single playing position.
With an upright tuba, you can shift the strap(s) time and again so your shoulder tissue can have access to fresh blood.
Plus, when the band is at rest while marching, we carry the horn on the side, bell pointing at front. This adds variety to carrying positions.

[Lew]

LoyalTubist,

tofu´s remark made perfect sense to me. Tubas that wrap around your body and have a bell that is located obove the player´s head, pointing forward, are called Sousaphones, in modern language. This is the horn that comes to mind whenever the "S"-word is seen or heard, and it´s the instrument the salesman will retrieve from the stock if you asked for one.
"Recording Sousaphone" may be a more exact term, but it only makes sense if other Sousaphones (i.e. Raincatchers) are present or commonly used. AFAIK the latter are not seen or even available on a dayly basis, in fact I personally learned on this board that there were Sousaphones with bells pointing up.
...

The point is that the original sousaphone, as conceived by J.P. Sousa and built by J.W. Pepper, was a raincatcher. To say

In the photos I recall I should clarify they were raincatchers and not Sousaphones.

is to imply that raincatchers are not sousaphones. Sousa would be turning over in his grave to hear that. Raincatchers are sousaphones, just in the original configuration.

[iiipopes]

OK, now that I have come down from my rant, it is a mixed blessing that Conn turned the bells forward. On tubas, yes, the bells were turned forward for recording with 1st generation recording equipment. But with sousaphones, having been stuck at the back by a lot of directors for marching, let alone outdoor concert formation, there is a lot of truth that their bells were turned forward for better projection to the front of the band. When was the last time you heard about a sousaphone in a recording studio apart from recording a marching band? The 26 inch bell would be knocking over everything!

With Conn's marketing, bell front became the archtypical sousaphone, with the original being relegated to "raincatcher" nickname status.

I still can't stand Dynasty-style shoulder tubas. That part of my rant remains.

Of course, Rick is right about the "real" reason for the button on the bottom bow of a Besson. I heard somewhere it was also used to steady the horn in the saddle for cavalry or mounted bands, as well.

If you look at my signature, you will see that it had to be tongue-in-cheek about my comments about Besson sousaphones. It's just that Pre-UMI Conns and Kings are so superior to everything else save the occasional rare Martin.

Now, if I can only find a Conn 14k bugle & bell, and graft a Besson 3-valve comp valve block to it....Nah, then the 5th partials would be flat as the trade-off to get the "false pedals," in spite of the fact the low notes would almost be in tune without a slide pull!

[Dan Schultz]

Also I always have marveled at those British Band tuba players having to march with a tuba.

What about these guys?
http://20j.marchingsoutherners.org/home.htm

[Manituba]

Most bands I've marched with try to put the tubas as close to the middle of the band as possible, as with the bass drum. This allows the tempo to be dictated from the centre of the band.

From front to back the rows are usually: Trombones, Trumpets, Euphs, Tubas, Percussion, Horns, Saxes, Clarinets, and Flutes.

Since most Canadian bands want to emulate British military bands, we generally stay away from sousaphones.

Thanks,
Chris

[Lew]

OK, so where should this one be placed?



(I expect to have it by the end of the week)

[Dan Schultz]

OK, so where should this one be placed?

THAT horn should be place right out in front! On the other hand... you'ld be just playing for the birds... no matter where you were

[windshieldbug]

What about these guys?
http://20j.marchingsoutherners.org/home.htm

That's just WRONG!

OK, so where should this one be placed?

On a stage. Or near the front, just like John P. thought...

[Joe Baker]

... it seems to me (and I have no knowledge of physics to back any of this up) that bass sound waves don't travel as fast or as far as for example the sound wave from for example the trumpets and rather than trying to catch up with the sound from up front it would make more sense to let the sound drift back like a British Band.

Of course, sound travels at about 343 meters/sec, and its speed is determined only by the temperature and moisture content, not the frequency or amplitude. But you may be onto something, nonetheless. There are two phenomena at work with tubas that cause them to seem behind the rest of the band: first, they often ARE playing behind the beat. We all know it takes just a bit longer to get the tuba to sound than it does a smaller instrument. Longer to move the tongue in the bigger mouthpiece, longer to set the lips vibrating at a slower frequency -- and many players don't compensate for this, so they really are playing behind the beat. Second, the bass sounds travel at the same speed, but aren't nearly as directional, and thus bounce around more before striking the listener's ear. Put differently, the sound is traveling the same speed, but over a longer distance. This phenomena would be worse with upright tubas (which are even LESS directional), so it might well be that this effect was sufficient to motivate British bands to move the tubas to the head of the column.

The best sounding marching band I've heard in parade (I don't remember who this was; maybe someone will recognize it and remind me) actually dispersed the tubas (and, indeed, all the instruments) up the length of the column. They also put the brass in the center of the column, with woodwinds toward the outside so that they would be closer to the crowd, and could thus be heard better. They wound up with pairs of lines something like:
Line 1

• Flute 2
  Clar 1
  Trumpet 2
  Trumpet 1
  Tuba
  Trombone 1
  French Horn
  Clar 2
  Flute 1

Line 2

• Clar 3
  Flute 1
  Alto Sax
  Trumpet 3
  Baritone
  Trombone 3
  Trombone 2
  Tenor Sax
  Bass Clarinet
  Piccolo

It looked very unconventional, but the sound was fantastic! As they passed you heard a nice, balanced blend, unlike the typical band where you hear the trumpets come and go, then the trombones, then the French horns,...
_________________________
Joe Baker, who thinks sitting by section works in a concert hall, but not so much when marching.