Mystery Bb tuba from Germany

[LauriH]

I recently bought a tuba from huuto.net which is a lot like ebay but intended to Finns. The fellow who sold it to me knew little about the history of this horn because he had bought it from flea market. I just wondered if you gyus here could tell me something about the history of this tuba.

I am almost sure that it came to Finland during WW2 and that it's manufactured in Nazi-German. The writing in the horn "Gott mitt uns" refers to it. And it isn't very big, 38" from bell to bottom bow and bell is 13", so it's surely is marching tuba.

It's playable, but the bore in the leadpipe is so big that none of my mouthpieces isn't big enough. Because of that I cannot say how good it sound. Valves work quite fine, but they are quite noisy. The tuning slides work well too.

Here are some picture of it:
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/rale/galle ... g_1305.jpg
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/rale/galle ... g_1306.jpg
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/rale/galle ... g_1307.jpg
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/rale/galle ... g_1309.jpg
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/rale/galle ... g_1310.jpg
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/rale/galle ... g_1311.jpg
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/rale/galle ... g_1312.jpg
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/rale/galle ... g_1313.jpg
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/rale/galle ... g_1314.jpg
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/rale/galle ... g_1315.jpg
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/rale/galle ... g_1316.jpg
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/rale/galle ... g_1318.jpg

-Lauri

[Chuck(G)]

You may want to check with Gebr. Alexander in Mainz to see if they can supply you with a suitable mouthpiece. Older Alexander tubas took a very large shank mouthpiece.

[Mark]

I think the tuba ist older than Nazi-times. The engraving points to a religious sphere, so I think it probably was part of a german church brass band, so called Posaunenchor (trombone-choir). There is no Nazi or military symbol on it.

Gott mit uns does predate World War II, but it is a slogan that was used on German military uniforms and was also used by Hitler.

[Chuck(G)]

Gott mit uns does predate World War II, but it is a slogan that was used on German military uniforms and was also used Hitler.

That little quote (and its variants) is very old indeed: "Deus nobiscum, quis contra?" Romans 8:31 in your Vulgate.

However, it was also the motto of the Kaiser:

[tubatooter1940]

Until you locate the proper mouthpiece, try wrapping any mouthpiece with electrical tape or duct tape just to see how the tuba plays. A good tape job can last for months. You will want to know how much you love the sound.

[LauriH]

I tried the taping thing. The sound is mostly scrubby and some notes are hard to hit. F below staff is especially very gard to get right. Notes below that F are quite good, but the upper register seems to be poor. But I'm a Eb tuba player so it might affect too.

[iiipopes]

After a good cleaning & rotor adjustment with a tech, and a proper large shank Alex-style mouthpiece, and I believe it will play better for you.

[imperialbari]

Gott mit uns does predate World War II, but it is a slogan that was used on German military uniforms and was also used Hitler.

That little quote (and its variants) is very old indeed: "Deus nobiscum, quis contra?" Romans 8:31 in your Vulgate.

No vulgarities here, just the King James version:

31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?

And yes, I know, what the Vulgata as well as the Septuaginta are. The first would cost me a lot of problems, the second would be impossible. Readingwise.

German and Czech tubas were used everywhere in the German speaking countries plus in the Nordic countries. Be it with the original maker’s name, be it as stencils, or be it in form of parts used by local makers.

Our fellow TubeNetter and a personal friend of mine, Sven Bring of Stockholm, just has sent me some photo links from a Swedish auction of a Swedish named tuba, where I (and guess also Sven) immediately can see, that this instrument has at least its body and bell made by a certain, now defunct, company from Markneukirchen.

Joe S knows a trick about determining instruments by their tubular stays. I would wish being as good as him at that point. My trick is about looking at base plates for thumb ring/lyre holder, at bow guards, and at hand forged stays. I will return to the instrument being the topic of this thread, when I have slept.

Due to certain political and economical circumstances not to be discussed here, Spain was a poor and outback country for decades until 1975. The strong Spanish music culture had meagre circumstances. One result was, that foreign tubists found a huge pool of pre-WWII German tubas still in active duty, when Spain was opened up again to a democratic exchange of humans and culture. Sadly, I guess, these samples have been scrapped with the upcoming prosperity of Spain.

When I find that sad, then because the craftsmen of the older days were allowed to spend the needed time doing things right. The way the branches and bows of my pre- 1930 Conn sousaphones were silver soldered and then cleaned cannot be paid today.

The old guys had a knowledge, which only is maintained by a few folks like Joe S and his fellow tradesmen in Washington State and Georgia plus a few ones on my side of the pond.

You will get tired of reading this: I am working on opening a little specialty brass instruments’ museum in my hometown. A pretty nice start-up collection is there, the money (mine) is there, a strong backing group of experienced cultural managers is there (I won’t be the chairman, I leave that to a much younger friend, who is far better educated in money matters - he is as pianist also, please be forgiving). We only haven’t found a sufficiently secure housing yet.

I will NOT take donations in cash, and I won’t apply for taxpayers’ money. But I am very open for donations of historically interesting instrument, which otherwise would be scrapped. And my main plea is: If you don’t want to give it to me, then give it to your local museum.

I will be expanding on this theme ad nauseam.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[imperialbari]

And of course I could not go to bed without having a closer look at the photos.

Everybody knows, that I have eye problems. I won’t go blind, but my new glasses won’t arrive until next week, as I have a very rare bifocal set-up.

So please provide me a full transcript of the text on the shield of the maker.

However I could dig my way through some of the letters: Psalm 150.

In my eyes that spelling was old German, but it apparently still stays current German as well as current English (the Danish word is "salme"). I have taught religion and literature almost as much as music, but it is decades ago. I expected to find an older version of the bible quotation, which Chuck had found. There is no book with as many cross-references as the bible (I could do a theological lecture on that topic, but I won’t).

Still returning to the King James Version I found this:

1 ¶ Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

Which is the exact reason, why I by heart was a church musician more than anything else. I just spoke it in Latin: Exultate Deo!

Back to tuba talk: the illustrated BBb has one trait pointing towards lower ambitious usage: only 3 valves. But if my eyes don’t cheat too much on me, the third valve is a major third valve.

A very Nordic trait on 3 valve Bb instruments allowing for the low Eb with the appropriate pulling of the slide. And the 3rd slide is placed well for a convenient pulling by the left thumb.

At the same time the lever arms/S-links are turned much more elaborately than on standard instruments. That fact points towards a high-end instrument respectfully intended for the purposes laid out in Psalm 150.

German sects were strong in two of the Nordic areas, which I know about: the Faroes and Greenland.

I cannot read Finnish (not an eye defect, but a sad linguistic shortcoming of mine). I cannot read the full shield text.

Still I will dare a long shot: This instrument was brought to Finland for clerical parade purposes.

I have done a lot of these. The last two ones sadly were about honouring the caskets of band mates.

As sad as they were: my late section mate and friend, Ove, had hip and back problems and hence worried about being able to stay fit through the funeral parade. Ove was a boatswain of the really tough type, but when it came to music and ergonomics, I was his commander. So I started my sentence, as one always had to do with Ove: "Shut up! Place your *** on one of the little stone pillars around the church square, play, and stay keeping your mouth shut up!" He just whispered: "Didn’t think of that!" and followed orders.

But then Ove and I once ran a band together. Formally I was the treasurer and he the chairman. The reality was the opposite. I couldn’t finish a sentence with a good idea, before Ove came back from downtown having executed that idea.

Did I stray? Certainly! Did Ove and I respect each other? Be sure!

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[LauriH]

The writing of the makers plate says this:

On the top: A.B.Ueberwasser
In the middle: Psalm 150, Gott mitt uns!
On the bottom (this isn't very clear): Hamburg or Bamburg or Rambure, or something like that. The first and the last letters aren't clear though the Hamburg is the most obvious writing. After that it says Paulinenstr 12. Here the N-letters are just squares so they can be another letter too.

Well, I don't know about the third slide-thing that you talked about imperialbari. It seems that the slide is too short for the use of getting Eb. The slide is also kinda tricky to pull of because the top bow is in the way. So this might be intended for basic usage.

[imperialbari]

I may be wrong on the 3rd valve matter, but the choice of materials, the details of the valve system, and the after all elaborate maker’s shield still makes me evaluate this tuba as a high end sample.

There is a Paulinenstraße in Hamburg (as in some other German towns - named after St. Paul churches).

The only other Ueberwasser instrument I have seen documented was a Kuhlo shaped flugelhorn engraved:

Bernh. Ueberwasser - Meister-Instrumente - Markneukirchen

I am still a bit curious about that third valve: Does it lower the pitch to G or to Gb?

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[LauriH]

I cannot fully say because I don't play Bb tuba. Yet I don't have mouthpiece that has shank big enough to fit well into leadpipe. But anyway it seems that the 3rd valve give G below staff and pulling the tuning slide makes it almost Gb. It is quite easy to adjust it to Gb. I could also get the low Eb if I pull the 3rd valves tuning slide way open and work it with my embouchure.

I'm glad if this turn out to be old high-end tuba. Eventough I doubt I will be using it in a regular basis it's nice to have piece of tubahistory.

Do you Klaus have any ideas where i could get further infomation about the matter?

-Lauri Huotarinen

[corbasse]

I was wondering if nobody on this forum had a New Langwill Index lying around. (I don't. Too much $$$$)
If you can get a Langwill at your library, you can at least look up the maker and see if there are any more details listed there. You'll probably won't find much else, most less important makers just have a few dates and address details listed.

[LauriH]

Thanks corbasse. Haven't heard about that book before. It sure is very expensive. If someone, who happens to read this topic, would have it could he check if there's info available? Our local libraries doesn't have it, but there is one book in the music academys library. Until I get it to my hands I'm still glad if someone could provide the information.

[imperialbari]

I cannot be helpful on the Langley matter.

But I have a quite good intuition based on my general knowledge of German history, which consists of a lot of parameters. The divide between the Catholics and the Protestants being still very much a factor today.

In England the Salvation Army had its own brass instruments’ factory. I don’t think the German Protestant Posaunenchor movement had anything similar.

But they may have worked together with some of the commercial brass houses. I suspect David of Bielefeld having been one of these.

The double Bible references in the makers shield and the fairly narrow bell make me believe, that this instrument has been made for smaller scale clerical band purposes between 1880 and the outbreak of WW1. A German Army tuba would have been more of the Kaiser-size. The turned rather than cut S-links make me sense as well high quality as the instrument being of the later/younger end of that time span.

It is in an amazing shape and probably has rested un-used for decades.

If you have a mouthpiece for your Eb, just use it in the BBb. I have made adapters out of paper, cloth, aluminium, and cupper. The latter two materials in sheet form.

You will get wiser and improve your chances in buying the optimal model with the proper shank size.

Doubling on Eb and BBb will not hurt you.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[windshieldbug]

Thanks corbasse. Haven't heard about that book before. It sure is very expensive. If someone, who happens to read this topic, would have it could he check if there's info available? Our local libraries doesn't have it, but there is one book in the music academys library. Until I get it to my hands I'm still glad if someone could provide the information.

I have a friend who has one, but the entry is not much help. It amounts to:

"Bernhard Ueberwasser did business in brasswinds. He flourished in Markneukirchen probably during the 20th Century. "

[imperialbari]

I have a friend who has one, but the entry is not much help. It amounts to:

"Bernhard Ueberwasser did business in brasswinds. He flourished in Markneukirchen probably during the 20th Century. "

Bernhard Ueberwasser is the maker of the Kuhlo shaped flugelhorn represented in my galleries.

Kuhlo was the Protestant priest behind the Posaunenchor revival around 1880. The Posaunenchor term comes from the Czech Protestant church (based on the teaching of Jan Hut), which is somewhat older than the Lutheran church.

"The Assembly of the Brethren" (my possibly inaccurate translation) were thrown out of Moravia by Catholic kings and went north to Saxony. Part of their liturgical tradition was the use of a true SSATB Posaunenchor (trombone choir) with all instruments being with slides (it was before the valve was invented).

The assembly spread all over the world, even was given its own town in Denmark, and there at least kept up the Posaunenchor tradition until my younger days, when I had relations to members of the assembly. The only change was that they had taken up valved instruments from flugelhorn through tuba. (I was just informed that the Danish assembly still has a 6 piece Posaunenchor).

The so-called Kuhlo flugelhorn is unique in being almost circular with a tuning slide loop in the body. Thereby the tuning leadpipe can be avoided.

As for the Ueberwasser tuba in question here: it has clearly been made in Hamburg. However it was not uncommon for brass making families to have sons opening their own workshops in other parts of Germany than in Markneukirchen.

The Scherzer’s are/were represented in Markneukirchen, Augsburg, and Krefeld.

A lot of German archive material can be found on the web, but a lot was lost during the war. Anyway I cannot trace anything about any Ueberwasser of Paulinenstraße in Hamburg.

But my evaluation of this tuba stands. And I have just tried to put, what I think is its background, into a context.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre