Oval Euphoniums in American Bands?

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:34 pm

Cheers! I wholeheartedly agree! There are a lot of instruments out there that need to have more people playing them. Even where I live, a Besson comp tuba is out of the ordinary!!

Before you firmly decide on the Cerveny, make sure you check out the other makers' models as well: Miraphone, Meinl-Weston, Rudy Meinl, Alexander, etc. -- if the company makes rotary valve tubas, they probably make a rotary euph or baritone as well. There is a good chart of makers at brass-forum.co.uk under links to manufacturers of instruments.

Chriss2760 · Post by **Chriss2760** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:54 pm

Our German Band, Musikapelle Leavenworth, has four players using the Cerveny oval horns, two of them are the three valve "baritones" and two are the four valve "euphoniums." Our experience has been that the sound is dark and full in the lower registers, but really comes into it's own playing the soaring counter-melody lines so common to this genre of music. A full section of these horns is very pleasing to hear. Having said that, though, I have to also mention that playing them on pitch is challenging at best. With diligence it can be done, but you are going to be all over the tuning slides, lipping up and down and possibly needing to make a mouthpiece adjustment to get it done. I believe that it would be prudent to play the specific horn you are going to buy if you choose to go this route. Good luck.

Ace · Post by **Ace** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:23 pm

I also commend you for considering a horn that is out of the ordinary, at least here in the U.S.

If you walk in to a concert band here with an oval euphonium under your arm, be prepared for some snickers and raised eyebrows.

These horns are great, and yes they sound a bit different from "standard" upright euphoniums. Whether the conductor or the section would accept them is iffy.

I owned and played in brass quintet a wonderful Cerveny C/Bb four rotor euph ( CEP 534-4M) with upright bell. The quintet guys loved the sound. On some notes, intonation was off, but quite correctable with standard alternate fingerings. This horn was beautifully finished and was made like a tank. Price was very moderate.

A sister to this horn is the upright bell CEP 533-4M in Bb. Use of an upright bell Cerveny possibly (?) would give you the sound of an oval, and would minimize snickers from other players.

http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... p_533g.htm

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:25 pm

Play one and let the sound tell you. If it's yes, once you play no one outside the tuba/euphonium world will care. Any more than what mouthpiece you're using. ("hey- that red plastic looks cool! NOW, let's play!")

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:33 pm

On a whim, about two years ago, I bought one of the 'Musica' 4V oval horns from a dealer at 'microscopecity.com'. The horn is obviously Chinese (at $295 plus $35 freight). It played so well, I had three guys fighting over it to buy it. I planned to buy another one but never got around to it. So many horns... so little time!

As far as playing it in an authentic brass band goes... forget it! However, it would work well in just about any other group.

dave · Post by **dave** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:59 pm

The Alexander #150 is a great oval 4-valve bariton (the German name for these horns): http://www.gebr-alexander.de/deutsch/in ... index.html

It blows freely thanks to the large bore (15.5 mm), and has wonderful tone & much better intonation than the Mirafones. The #150 has the same valve section & lead pipe as the better-known #151 (tenor tuba), but it has a smaller bell (10.5" vs. 12") and an oval shape. I love the tone, it is dark and has a lot of higher partials, so it sounds quite a bit different from a Hirsbrunner/Willson compensating horn.

-Dave

Alex F · Post by **Alex F** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:45 am

Tinker:

Are the Selman oval euphs (the ORIGINAL Selman, not a copy of a Selman . . .) the same as the Violinking horns. Violinking does not list any euphs/baris currently, but the other folks (I think they call themselves "Great Tunes") do.

One of the Cerveny's was up on the 'Bay a few weeks back. It was being sold by a music store out east. I actually bid on it but the bidding got ridiculous towards the last few minutes. They pop up every once in a while.

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:45 am

Copy of a Selman?

Web search for "ebay seller great tunes", with quotes, will get you some perspective of a kind you don't tend to see in the feedback section.

tubeast · Post by **tubeast** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:37 am

Upon using a Tenorhorn or Bariton (basically 3-4/4 and 6/4 versions of the same concept) please keep in mind that they are definitely NOT euphoniums soundwise. An oldfashioned German expression for them is "BassflÃ¼gelhorn" rather than "Tenortuba", and this hints both at the sound concept as well as its main role in German / Bohemian band music. (And ROTARY flugelhorn, that is, not the kind Chuck Mangione used. Totally different sound).

Some open minded bands over here have started to use 4+1 euphoniums for concert literature (winter) and ovals for octoberfest literature (summer). I couldnÂ´t imagine the latter being performed on euphs.
One of those players commented he had to relearn to breathe, needing MUCH more air on the euph than on the Tenorhorn.

Anterux · Post by **Anterux** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:42 am

I had an Oval Euphonium. It had some serious intonation problems. I sold it. Now I have a normal one. Much better. Easier to play, better sound, much better intonation.

Alex F · Post by **Alex F** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:51 pm

Russell:

I took another look at your original post. It seems that you were looking for a euphonium to play and had some leaning towards the oval horns based on past experience.

For most puposes, I think you will be better off with a standard 4 valve non-compensating euphonium. Fortunately, you have many choices, both new and used. For example, you may want to try:

- Weril H980, 4 valve, large shank receiver. About $1100 new - many think it's the best bang for the buck out there

- VMI 3171, also 4 valve, large shank. A little more expensive but, IMHO, better made. Made by VMI/B&S. There is a Courtois model which is very similar (Courtois was part of VMI until recently and still has a manufacturing deal with them)

- Yamaha YEP-321S, 4 valve, small shank receiver. These are the "school standard" euphs. They are a tad pricey new, but there are lots out there on the used market, because they are in such wide use in schools. There is one on the FS section right now that you can check out, and 5 - 10 show up on EBay most months.

It's always best to stick a mouthpiece in each one and try it out for yourself, if at all possible.

These are the ones I am most familiar with. There are others.

Good luck.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:49 pm

Guys, come on: are your "intonation problems" true intonation problems, or just the usual 5th partials flat and 23, 13, and 123 valve combinations being sharp?

Everyone (even me) is sooooooooo spoiled on comps!

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:43 pm

iiipopes wrote:Guys, come on: are your "intonation problems" true intonation problems, or just the usual 5th partials flat and 23, 13, and 123 valve combinations being sharp?

Everyone (even me) is sooooooooo spoiled on comps!

I'm trying to think of how the typical four-valve compensator has any effect on the fifth partials or the 2-3 combinations. And any four-valve non-compensating instrument should have no problem replacing 1-3 with 4 and 1-2-3 with 2-4.

The only part of the range affected by the compensation system on a four-valve compensator is 2-4 at the bottom of the tuning scale, and below low F. The compensation tubing is only in the circuit when the fourth valve is in use.

Rick "who has played many compensators with wacky intonation, and who would buy a Weril 980 in a heartbeat if he wanted a new, playable euph" Denney

Dean E · Post by **Dean E** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:21 pm

MBrooke wrote: . . . . If you have to have an oval horn, consider the one distributed by ViolinKing on eBay. . . .

With 96.6% feedback, and whose Asian-provenance products have been "recommended by band directors" for years, and now are recommended by Tubenet.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:38 pm

Rick, I think you misinterpreted me. The comment was directed at those who said they had intonation problems with their oval horns.

Anterux · Post by **Anterux** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:18 pm

iiipopes wrote:Guys, come on: are your "intonation problems" true intonation problems, or just the usual 5th partials flat and 23, 13, and 123 valve combinations being sharp?

Everyone (even me) is sooooooooo spoiled on comps!

No. In my case, the oval euphonium had real intonation problems. And the problems had nothing to do with it being a non compensator.

2nd partial too low (very hard to play a perfect octave with 4th partial)

1st valve slide too short to play with 3th partial but too long to play with 4th.

in general all intination was getting lower in the upper register.

not only the 5th partial.

This instrument was not a Cerveny nor a Mirafone.

It was a very beautifull looking instrument. But very hard to play.

Kind Regards

Antero.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:04 am

Anterux - thanks for your feedback.
JohnH - Hmm. Of course, the bell front "American" style baritones would have problems, but it seems that the the entire bell section on an oval horn is only slightly angled, which may or may not interfere with a mute. Does anyone out there with oval horns have any experience with mutes?

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:06 am

iiipopes wrote:Does anyone out there with oval horns have any experience with mutes?

No, but I've seen mimes complain about them quite a bit...

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:03 pm

iiipopes wrote:Rick, I think you misinterpreted me.

Yeah, prolly.

Rick "reading things with fresh eyes today" Denney

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:49 pm

To follow up about mutes:

I was surfing the Rudy Meinl site. He makes oval euphs & baritones. The top section of the bell is not angled untl it gets low enough for a mute.

Congrats on getting something to get going on. With wear in the strings or mechanism and the corks, rotors can come out of alignment, making intonation rough. If it's playable, it might be worth spending a few buck on just to make sure the rotors are clean and aligned, and the bumper corks not compressed.

AND...check out this new thread:
viewtopic.php?t=13311