Racism in Music World?

[Joe Baker]

Several people -- people whom I respect -- have suggested that this is a stupid discussion. On the contrary, I think it's an important one. Questions of race and fairness are understandably on the minds of people considering whether they will pursue a career that is, at best, a longshot. To ask whether race is a further hindrance is a legitimate question.

As to whether racism still exists generally, with all due respect to those who think it does not, I believe you are wrong. The institutions of racism of 40 years ago are gone, but there are still people with bigoted attitudes who will show unfair preference because of the way someone looks -- whether that's race, gender, age, body form, beauty, whatever.

I certainly see no reason why this should devolve into politics, in any case. No political ideology is immune from bigotry.
________________________________
Joe Baker, who hopes that his grandchildren will not need to consider this question.

[passion4tuba]

I find myself agreeing with Mr. Baker. This discussion is very important..I also see where Arnold is comming from in the case that people make an exuse of his ethnicity being the source of his talent..

Often in my highschool band, people (those i considered friends!) told me because i'm black, i'm "naturally" good at the tuba, (and that all black people have a natural advantage in brass..)instead of noting the hard work i put in with my horn..

Also, i must agree with Mr. Baker that racism is existent, not prevalent, in all areas of industry, and music is not exempt, though it is probably be going a little too far to say it is evident in the blind audition process. Interesting points of view so far..very insightful..

[tubafatness]

I think I'm just going to put two cents in this heated topic. It it true that there is an element of racism within music. That's just how it works. Always has, always will, just deal with it. We as musicians must no dwell on the racism itself but the efforts being made to quell or even overturn such common perceptions. For instant, although the symphony orchestra may be considered the "white man's" group, I have seen several very talented musicians of other ethnicities fitting in quite well with that context. In fact, the best symphony conductor I have ever seen was a black man, although for some reason I have forgotten his name, (I was concentrating too much on the low brass!) So, that just goes to show you that the rule of racism is not absolute, but is in fact a misperception. As with all other instances of racism, it is not the common belief that should influence your opinion of a person, but your own personal sense of that person as a whole. Just my two cents.
Aaron "Tubafatness" Hynds

[Joe Baker]

Also, i must agree with Mr. Baker that racism is quite prevalent in all areas of industry...

Easy, there, don't put words in my mouth. I've said it exists. I would absolutely NOT say it is prevalent.

Racism is absolutely the exception to the rule, and in some cases minority candidates do in fact have an advantage. Overall, I'd say the playing field is "flat-ish" -- any particular person has a bit of an advantage here, a bit of a disadvantage there. Depending on where an individual wants to go, his race may help slightly or hinder slightly. Those of us who remember REAL segregation know that nothing today even approaches the institutionalized racism of the '60s and prior.

For the most part today, pretty much anyone in this country who sets out to make a good living, AND works hard toward that goal (study hard in school, don't make babies before getting married, don't get married 'til done with school, start at the bottom, be diligent and reliable in your work), CAN make a very nice life for himself. Those who set out TO PLAY TUBA (as opposed to those who set out TO MAKE A GOOD LIVING -- these goals are not necessarily compatible) will face many obstacles; but I doubt if race will be one of them.

Does racism exist? yes. Is it prevalent? no.
______________________________
Joe Baker, who points out that on matters of great importance, precision matters greatly!

[Chuck(G)]

...and all of this differs how from not hiring someone for a position because they're ugly?

Happens all of the time. Is it fair? No. You want to do something about it, Ms. Glampers?

I'm done here.

[Chuck(G)]

I'm not saying that we'll create waves of black and/or latino classical players but given proper exposure we might have more sitting on stage behind lip-vibrated aerophones rather than scratch turntables as we do now.........

Golly, I thought we were doing pretty good in that department--it's just that the aerophones that they play aren't tubas. I guess I don't blame them...




...

[quinterbourne]

How about some specifics: Vienna Philharmonic

www.wienerphilharmoniker.at

Check out their long list of musicians:
http://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/inde ... =musicians

Check out a photo of the orchestra:


Notice a trend? Out of the (over 200) musicians listed, there are only two females (maybe the 2nd harpist and a retired musician - correct me if I am wrong). Check out the photo, all white men.

Are they racist? I'm not qualified to answer that. They have a philosophy that only men are able to express deep emotion. Do they have a right to exclude persons of a certain gender and/or race to allow their orchestra to maintain the sound they desire? Another tough question.

Is it possible you may be excluded because of your gender, age, race or appearance? Possibly. Is it possible you may be accepted because of your gender, age, race appearance? Possibly. In the end, I think it all evens out. Work hard and make it difficult for them to discriminate based on anything other than sound.

[passion4tuba]

As someone who has expiereinced rascism in the music world, as a black player, i can say i never began this thread to "talk down" an issue, only to get opinons from players old and young. No issues of racism can just be talked down, but at the same time, i did not mean to "talk them up". The water may be quelled to a certain extent under the bridge, but in no way are there still waters. I hope that anyone who has any opinion on this issue can at least acknowlege that. Also, i find it not pointless to talk about this, rather i think it's better to get strong views on it than just quietley ignore it..

[Tubaryan12]

The real question is... when will this thread find itself locked?

Not soon enough.

Ryan, don't call me "African American" Roberts, Sr.

[Jarrod]

I don't know if anyone has seen the show on TLC (?) called "Black. White."
It was very interesting, black people were made to look white, and vice versa. They went out and experienced the world to see what would be different. It was painfully obvious that you GENERALLY (of COURSE there are exceptions) get what you look for. The black man thought everyone treated him like a king, but in reality he kept saying over and over how much more "comfortable" he was, so I would argue that people treated him like a "white guy" because he acted like a "human being". The white guy went out as a black man, acted like he usually does and got treated the same as always.

CLEARLY racism exists, CLEARLY white people were horrible to other races in the past, CLEARLY there are still pockets of rampant racism, and to me...CLEARLY people are still creating their own racism problems. Because of this, I would say all races are pretty much getting "racismed against" equally. You get what you look for. I don't walk down the streets in Harlem with an attitude, trying to see if everyone treats me the different. If I were to walk down the streets in Harlem I would try and be accomodating to THEIR culture and their way of life, exactly as you would if you were traveling to Asia/Africa/Ireland/wherever.

Certain people talk about race and racism more than others, and this is why the problem continues. The people thinking about it all the time are the ones it affects.

[Tubaryan12]

CLEARLY people are still creating their own racism problems. Because of this, I would say all races are pretty much getting "racismed against" equally. You get what you look for.

Thank you. Isn't it amazing that people always seem to find what they are looking for.

Ryan "more people should spend their time finding a way to get gas under $2.00/gal." Roberts, Sr.

[rascaljim]

Copied from http://www.cso.org/main.taf?p=2,9,1,2

"The Diversity Fellowship Program is a part of the CSO's ongoing, institution-wide education, community engagement, and diversity efforts. Through this program, the CSO seeks to:

Interest musicians from ethnically and culturally diverse backgrounds in auditioning for permanent positions in major symphony orchestras.
Increase the pool of musicians from groups that have been traditionally under-represented in American orchestras qualified to contend for orchestral positions.
Break down barriers, real and perceived, that limit opportunities for musicians from under-represented groups.
Promote the career of orchestra musician as a noble and worthwhile pursuit.

In an effort to increase ethnic and cultural diversity in American orchestras, special consideration will be given to applicants who are African-American, Latino, or from other under-represented groups.

Applicants will be selected through a blind audition process to participate in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra Diversity Fellowship Program for a one-year term. The Fellowship may be extended for an additional year by mutual consent. The program will be customized to best suit the needs of the individual(s) selected to participate, and will provide multiple opportunities for Fellows to work closely with members of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, leading to a greater understanding of the skills necessary to become excellent orchestral musicians."


I'm not trying to add opinion to this thread because I agree with everyone else, it's stupid. But as you can see above you might have a better chance getting in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra if you're a minority.

Jim Langenberg

[Arkietuba]

People are stupid if they think that non-white musicians aren't discriminated against. They are, even as young as high school. One of my friends in high school (Rojay Moore) was a phenominal trombonist and was considered by many as a professional level trombonist in high school. He could play some mean jazz and even taught our teacher who was a phenominal jazz trumpeter. He even received lessons from Wycliffe Gordon and Wynton Marsalis. When Rojay tried out for All-State jazz band his senior year he did better than anyone...but didn't make it...one of the judges peeked over the sheet to see who it was.

[pulseczar]

wow this thread makes me feel sheltered.

I live in San Jose, which seems to have 'white people' as the minoritiy and though there is little pockets or racism here and there, we all seem to get a long just fine compared to Memphis and other areas talked about in this thread.

[Alex F]

Fostering diversity in classical music organizations is no longer a matter of fairness or politics. Rather, it's a matter of survival, especially in those large urban areas where most of the top orcehstras are found.

Chicago proper is almost 70% Black and Latino. The surronding counties of the Chicago metro area are almost 25& Black and Hispanic. Groups like the CSO and Chicago Lyric can not ignore this demographic and are not doing so.

To date, one double bassist has "graduated" from the CSO's diversity followship program. For 2006-2207, CSO is offering three fellowships, one each in in violin, viola, and cello. Getting a fellowship does not make you a member of the CSO, they play a few concerts as subs and do a six week stint at Ravinnia during the summer. When a permanent vacancy opens, they audition like anyone else (let's face it, there are not many annual vacancies at the CSO).

With regard to yound people, groups like the Merit Music Program offer opporunities to several thousand kids every year. Merit works at over 50 CPS schools right now. Due to severe budget cuts, CPS music programs have been gutted and are almost non-existant in the grade schools. The oureach of non-profits like Merit and the community efforts of CSO, Lyric, and the other major music organizations help fill the void.

As Moises C. has stated in a couple of posts further up, exposure and opportunity can lead to interest and participation. This has certainly been borne out here in Chicago.

[rascaljim]

...you see, this is why this thread is STOOOOOOOPID! Minorities do not want special consideration, we (I) want the same consideration as everyone else. We dont have a better chance, its watered down. I want the job based on MY ability not because "im black and I get special consideration" Bull sh*t! Give me the job because I earned it, not to fill your quoda! Thats all I have to say about that!

Bluemusic1,
amen

Jim

[windshieldbug]

A long time ago, I was "discriminated against"

Location: Westminster Abbey (North Choir Aisle)

Of course you were. You're dead, didn't anyone tell you?

[LoyalTubist]

I understand a little bit about racial discrimination. My ex-wife was Chinese and I heard everything she heard. I heard when people said she got her job because they needed a token Asian. I had the graffiti written on my car stating "GO BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM!" My daughters are beautiful in every way. Yes, I know racism still exists.

Now then, my ex-wife is considered an Asian because she retains many of the same customs practiced in Asia--plus she was born there. I do not like being considered a European. I lived in Europe for three years and I think there was a bigger culture clash within me there than there was in the four years I lived in Asia!

Actually, in comparison to other fields, music has some of the least discrimination of any area of work. I think the problem with the shortage of certain ethnic groups in our field is a matter of personal choice and that should be respected. I don't think we need to lower our standards by hiring musicians on the Affirmative Action plan!

[Joe Baker]

You part-timers haven't spent a day here in the capital city of "racism" (but not-at-all the type of "racism" that you have been programmed to conceptualize).

Bloke, I lived in Dallas for most of my life, with a lot of the same sort of B.S. Allow me to postulate that this is not really a race issue; it is just one out of many forms of political manipulation. Because (as has been universally agreed) any large group of people is, AS a group, stupid, populations are always susceptible to being manipulated by politicians. This is especially true when the manipulation is to foment hatred of some other group. Nazi hatred of the Jews, Arab hatred of Americans, white hatred of blacks, black hatred of whites -- all of these have been easy pickin's for opportunistic politicians.

Most large cities have been, for a variety of reasons both noble and ignoble, largely abandoned by white folks, so that the populations are now predominately black. The leaders of those cities, for reasons of political power, benefit from stirring up hatred and suspicion of white people (and we mustn't forget: there is legitimate history to support their claims, even if those claims are no longer true).

So what you are describing exists, to be sure, but it's not about "blackness"; it's merely political manipulation. Nor are black people especially foolish to fall for it, as populations of every race have always been susceptible to the same line.

All we can do is try to be as objective as we can, and acknowledge that none of us is REALLY objective. We have to constantly search our own attitudes for attitudes of bigotry and racial prejudice. And when we DO see racism of ANY sort -- against any race -- it behooves us both to deplore it and to understand its source.

I still think this was a legitimate question. An aspiring musician who is concerned, for whatever reason, that they will hit a race barrier has a right to ask if it is so. But I don't think it is productive to have an open-ended debate about race in America in this particular forum. As such, I expect this to be my last post on the matter.
________________________
Joe Baker, who knows that some sentences in this post could be used out of context, and hopes no one will do so.

[Rick Denney]

someone lock this thread!

Did you post in this thread just to see if you could? Did you forget that this was the thread that annoyed you the last time you looked at it?

Rick "who avoids the threads that annoy him" Denney