Oval Euphoniums in American Bands?

Anterux · Post by **Anterux** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:42 am

I had an Oval Euphonium. It had some serious intonation problems. I sold it. Now I have a normal one. Much better. Easier to play, better sound, much better intonation.

Alex F · Post by **Alex F** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:51 pm

Russell:

I took another look at your original post. It seems that you were looking for a euphonium to play and had some leaning towards the oval horns based on past experience.

For most puposes, I think you will be better off with a standard 4 valve non-compensating euphonium. Fortunately, you have many choices, both new and used. For example, you may want to try:

- Weril H980, 4 valve, large shank receiver. About $1100 new - many think it's the best bang for the buck out there

- VMI 3171, also 4 valve, large shank. A little more expensive but, IMHO, better made. Made by VMI/B&S. There is a Courtois model which is very similar (Courtois was part of VMI until recently and still has a manufacturing deal with them)

- Yamaha YEP-321S, 4 valve, small shank receiver. These are the "school standard" euphs. They are a tad pricey new, but there are lots out there on the used market, because they are in such wide use in schools. There is one on the FS section right now that you can check out, and 5 - 10 show up on EBay most months.

It's always best to stick a mouthpiece in each one and try it out for yourself, if at all possible.

These are the ones I am most familiar with. There are others.

Good luck.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:49 pm

Guys, come on: are your "intonation problems" true intonation problems, or just the usual 5th partials flat and 23, 13, and 123 valve combinations being sharp?

Everyone (even me) is sooooooooo spoiled on comps!

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:43 pm

iiipopes wrote:Guys, come on: are your "intonation problems" true intonation problems, or just the usual 5th partials flat and 23, 13, and 123 valve combinations being sharp?

Everyone (even me) is sooooooooo spoiled on comps!

I'm trying to think of how the typical four-valve compensator has any effect on the fifth partials or the 2-3 combinations. And any four-valve non-compensating instrument should have no problem replacing 1-3 with 4 and 1-2-3 with 2-4.

The only part of the range affected by the compensation system on a four-valve compensator is 2-4 at the bottom of the tuning scale, and below low F. The compensation tubing is only in the circuit when the fourth valve is in use.

Rick "who has played many compensators with wacky intonation, and who would buy a Weril 980 in a heartbeat if he wanted a new, playable euph" Denney

Dean E · Post by **Dean E** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:21 pm

MBrooke wrote: . . . . If you have to have an oval horn, consider the one distributed by ViolinKing on eBay. . . .

With 96.6% feedback, and whose Asian-provenance products have been "recommended by band directors" for years, and now are recommended by Tubenet.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:38 pm

Rick, I think you misinterpreted me. The comment was directed at those who said they had intonation problems with their oval horns.

Anterux · Post by **Anterux** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:18 pm

iiipopes wrote:Guys, come on: are your "intonation problems" true intonation problems, or just the usual 5th partials flat and 23, 13, and 123 valve combinations being sharp?

Everyone (even me) is sooooooooo spoiled on comps!

No. In my case, the oval euphonium had real intonation problems. And the problems had nothing to do with it being a non compensator.

2nd partial too low (very hard to play a perfect octave with 4th partial)

1st valve slide too short to play with 3th partial but too long to play with 4th.

in general all intination was getting lower in the upper register.

not only the 5th partial.

This instrument was not a Cerveny nor a Mirafone.

It was a very beautifull looking instrument. But very hard to play.

Kind Regards

Antero.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:04 am

Anterux - thanks for your feedback.
JohnH - Hmm. Of course, the bell front "American" style baritones would have problems, but it seems that the the entire bell section on an oval horn is only slightly angled, which may or may not interfere with a mute. Does anyone out there with oval horns have any experience with mutes?

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:06 am

iiipopes wrote:Does anyone out there with oval horns have any experience with mutes?

No, but I've seen mimes complain about them quite a bit...

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:03 pm

iiipopes wrote:Rick, I think you misinterpreted me.

Yeah, prolly.

Rick "reading things with fresh eyes today" Denney

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:49 pm

To follow up about mutes:

I was surfing the Rudy Meinl site. He makes oval euphs & baritones. The top section of the bell is not angled untl it gets low enough for a mute.

Congrats on getting something to get going on. With wear in the strings or mechanism and the corks, rotors can come out of alignment, making intonation rough. If it's playable, it might be worth spending a few buck on just to make sure the rotors are clean and aligned, and the bumper corks not compressed.

AND...check out this new thread:
viewtopic.php?t=13311

BoyFromTaint · Post by **BoyFromTaint** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:06 pm

Russell,

I think you are doing the right thing by asking before you buy.

I play professionally and, naturally, play on a four valve compensator. I also have my own little German band and own a 4 valve oval bariton for that, a VMI from Germany. I love it. BUT!....

I would not recommend one if you plan to use it as your primary instrument. The sound is very sweet but not one that we commonly accept here in the US anymore. Also, the intonation is very, very bad. I had a custom trigger put on my oval to move the tuning slide and use it most of the time. And most of the time the tuning slide is pushed out. The first day I used it in the German band everyone thanked me again and again.

I think you should really consider a 4 valve compensator if you can afford it. Otherwise, go with the Yamaha 321 or one of the good copies of that one. There are a couple more to choose from. Later, when you have the money to spend, get yourself an oval and enjoy it.

Also, when you do buy, look around a lot. Czerveny is really the only notable brand available in the US. You can buy one of those cheap ones that you see on ebay but that would be a waste of money... I know a person who bought one of those so I speak from experience. If you get a chance to go to Europe and play a few you'll find that they are made by many companies and come in various bore sizes and bell sizes. This all makes a difference in the sound. Also, Melton is doing some experimentation with them trying to make them more conical for a more "euphonium like" sound. I think they will also put a trigger on them upon request.

http://www.meinl-weston.de/meltonbariton.htm

Good luck.

BFT

Alex F · Post by **Alex F** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:43 pm

There's a primo repair guy in Arcadia CA that has many horns for sale. His name is Robb Stewart. I noticed he has a Miraphone oval euphonium and a Miraphone bell front euph on his curent list.

He also has several tubas, BBb and Eb.

He does not have a web site but posts his list here:

http://www.geocities.com/oldbrass1/price.html

His phone, fax, and e-mail contact info is there as wee and the list is updated every few weeks.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:56 am

eBay oval (don't know what your price range is)

Baritone o.Tenorhorn 4rot. Valves. Jos. Hampl

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:13 am

Leisesturm wrote:I wouldn't refuse to buy or play a euph or tuba just because of its origin, the proof is in the pudding.

I would. If the Chinese end up making all new instruments, I will buy an old one (that's easy to say, since I would have anyway!) That tenor horn isn't for everyone, and there's some risk that it isn't good for anything (high pitch?) But for what it's worth, I have dealt with the seller and he seems like a square guy, and the horn looks to me like it may have been quite the high end instrument in its day. If it doesn't work out, it's not like you missed your chance at that Jin Bao, there's always more trash on the way from China.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:24 am

tmosig wrote:I have an oval horn made by Miraphone. I have had the horn for over 20 years. It was a gift from my great aunt. the horn is the model 54 baritone horn with four valves. My original Miraphone catalog lists the horn as having a graduated bore (a diploma?) of 0.540 inch in the first two valves, and 0.580 borein the next two valves. The horn has always given me a very dark tone, but the smaller bore has always been a little stuffy, especially in the low range. The horn has some intonation problems, but nothing very severe. The worst has been the f in the bass cleff staf, which is sharp on that horn. I play in a german band, and most of the members have the oval horns. One member has a 60's vintage Alexander, and it plays in tune and very open blowing. Another has a St Petes, but it is a little stuffy and has some intonation problems. Another member has a Wilson, and I have played that as a comparison. The wilson is much more free blowing than my horn, but does not have a darker tone than my horn. How dark your tone is depends on your style of playing and your choice of mouthpiece. I primarily play a 191 model tuba today, so I am most used to the front action rotory valves. I have tried other euphs with the top action pistons and compensating systems, but I have not been overwhelmingly impressed. I see this as being similar to the Bb vs C question for tubas: Try to play as many different horns as you can, and pick the one that suits you best. Every one here has good advice, so just read through. Good luck picking a horn!

Havenâ€™t followed this thread until now. Havenâ€™t read all postings. This posting catches my interest on a number of matters.

German/Czech ovals are meant to be played on mouthpieces, which we would consider ridiculously small for anything but jazz trombonism. I have seen a Tenorhorn as well as a Kaiserbariton (German terms used on purpose) come with a 12C replica of the well-known Vincent Bach trombone cup. Only both instruments needed the medium shank mouthpieces also known from old British euphs. And the â€œreplicasâ€

tubeast · Post by **tubeast** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:22 am

Doc, weÂ´re absolutely on the same side of the road on this one.

Just had an opportunity to listen to several local bands on a beerfest last weekend. One brought their euphs to play our traditional literature, and it simply sucked. The broad sound of the euphs was not able to cut through 300 people drinking beer, eating Schnitzel or WÃ¼rstchen, telling jokes and having all kinds of fun in the process.

I wrote:

Some open minded bands over here have started to use 4+1 euphoniums for concert literature (winter) and ovals for octoberfest literature (summer). I couldnÂ´t imagine the latter being performed on euphs.

I think that would be a smart approach and will gladly stick with that opinion.

TubeNet

Oval Euphoniums in American Bands?

Oval Euphoniums in American Bands?

Re: Oval Euph