Switching from BBb to CC(or vica versa) by tuning slide

TUBAMUSICIAN87 · Post by **TUBAMUSICIAN87** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:13 pm

While I was sitting in concert band today doing what I do best (rest) and I was thinking about one of the ebay posts about a tuba with an extra slide that looked like it came from a french horn. And I wondered if someone who was looking to switch from a BBb to a CC(vica versa) wouldnt they be able to buy a new tuning slide that would be of the same bore size and either longer switching to BBb or shorter switching to CC to save well alot of money and keep an instrument you are already familiar with.

I know Trombonists do something like this with their F attachments. the tuning slide is a little bit longer to switch it to an E attachement.

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:50 pm

M-W also offers/offered optional extended tuning slides for their CC tubas that allow them to be played in BBb and the valve slides are long enough to be pulled to work in BBb. Miraphone also offered such a slide extender at one time. My understanding is that although they work, the horns typically don't play as well as a horn designed to play in BBb in the first place.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:21 pm

B&S also used to offer such conversion main tuning slides for their CC tubas.

Lew is right in his statement about the "extended-CC-to-BBb" tubas playing less well than good original BBb tubas.

Well-designed modern tubas have as much of their main bugle being conical to very varying degrees, but still conical, for as much of the bugle as possible.

The branches of the main tuning slide have to be cylindrical, but then several makers connect the two branches with a conical bow.

The valve slides have to be cylindrical, but one of the most successful F-tubas ever had an increase in bore through the valve block (B&S Symphonie, just refer with Joe S).

The "CC-to-BBb" extenders in most cases are cylindrical. The B&S sample I saw even had some very sharp bends to fit it into the overall structure of the tuba.

Such an extender skews every effort, which the original designer has made to optimise the original CC tuba.

I am into BBb and Eb tubas, but I can play F also, whereas my ears donâ€™t get along well with CC tubas (I canâ€™t find the open notes). Yet I am totally unbiased about, which pitches of tubas my section fellows play. As long as they play them well and in tune.

In my opinion it is distilled idiocy to demand all BBb sections in concert bands, because â€œthat promotes a better common tuningâ€

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:59 pm

Aside frome the bore profile, one would not be able to play a BBb as a CC because the valve slides would all need to be shortened. Or lengthend for a CC to BBb (of course, you can just pull them out in this case, but how do you know how far?). And because the bore profile will be changing, most likely so will the intonation quirks. You might not end up with that familiar an instrument after all...

ken k · Post by **ken k** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:33 pm

Didn't the Canadian Brass CB50 (Getzen G50) have the rotor valve that could be used to switch the horn form BBb to CC?

ken k

Charlie Goodman · Post by **Charlie Goodman** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:42 pm

ken k wrote:Didn't the Canadian Brass CB50 (Getzen G50) have the rotor valve that could be used to switch the horn form BBb to CC?

ken k

A first valve?

ken k · Post by **ken k** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:01 pm

Charlie Goodman wrote:
ken k wrote:Didn't the Canadian Brass CB50 (Getzen G50) have the rotor valve that could be used to switch the horn form BBb to CC?

ken k
A first valve?

Besides that one! The G50 was a four piston/ one rotor horn and I seem to recall that the fifth vavle could be locked on to make the horn a BBb. Maybe I was dreaming though.......

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:05 pm

ken k wrote:Maybe I was dreaming though...

That was just taped down, like an Eb sousaphone at Curtis...

Kevin Hendrick · Post by **Kevin Hendrick** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:10 pm

windshieldbug wrote:
ken k wrote:Maybe I was dreaming though...
That was just taped down, like an Eb sousaphone at Curtis...

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:20 pm

ken k wrote:
Charlie Goodman wrote:
ken k wrote:Didn't the Canadian Brass CB50 (Getzen G50) have the rotor valve that could be used to switch the horn form BBb to CC?

ken k
A first valve?
Besides that one! The G50 was a four piston/ one rotor horn and I seem to recall that the fifth vavle could be locked on to make the horn a BBb. Maybe I was dreaming though.......

Yeah, you "could" make it play as a BBb.

The fifth valve could be setup as a flat half step (no extenders in place), flat whole step ("medium" extenders), or as a 2-3 combo ("long" extention---ala Miraphone). All worked well, although I used the flat whole step almost exclusively.

The operation was pretty simple. It just required unscrewing, removing, flipping, and reinstalling the stop arm on the fifth valve when set up as a flat whole step, which "locked" it down giving you basically a 4 valve BBb.

It did not work well because of the extra couple feet of tightly wrapped fairly small bore tubing immediately following the leadpipe made it play really stuffy and because the valve slides had to be pulled w-a-y out to make it work even "ok."

The Getzen G-50s were fantastic CC tubas though. Get a King 2341 if you want a BBb that is similar.

Also, TubaTinker built a CC to BBb slide for a Miraphone 184 he had and did a write up about it on his site. He decided it didn't work so well and ended up selling the horn and using a "real" BBb instead of dealing with the goofy tendencies of theCC-gone-BBb 184. See the bottom of the page at http://thevillagetinker.com/projects.htm

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:17 pm

This is what the Miraphone 184 CC to BBb slide looked like. The extra two feet of straight bore tubing did some very strange things to the intonation.

The lesson I learned is to buy a horn in the key you want and forget about the conversions. Most tubas a quirky enough already!

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:32 am

ANY CC horn with a rotary 5th valve can be made to play as a "BBb" horn by taking the linkage off, turning the rotor, and reattaching the linkage so it works "backwards," as an ascending valve. You then, as mentioned above, pull each of the slides so that the total length of the open bugle plus the slide is 1.0594631 times what it was before. So if before the 1st valve slide was 24 inches long, now it has to be @25.43 inches long, which divided by two about the two legs, means pulling the 1st valve slide @.72 inches, etc. BUT, because you have radically changed the proportion of cylindrical to conical tubing, the horns overall intonation will be significantly compromised, depending on the particular horn as to which notes are most affected. I still tease the guy I sit beside in Shrine band who has a MW Bell CC that he should do that so he doesn't have the complex fingerings in the common flat keys of a lot of concert band music. He then teases me why I don't play upright bass in an orchestra, and we buy each other beer later.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:52 am

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!

Lars Trawen · Post by **Lars Trawen** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:33 am

This thread reminds me about the Bb-C trombone, originally developed by Boosey&Hawkes for the not so skilled player, who plays the sacral hymns along the organ directly from the book without the knowledge of transposing.
The picture is from the Thein Brothers' homepage.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:30 pm

Yamaha has a student model for beginners with short arms that does the same thing, the YSL 350C:
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Con ... 00,00.html

As the slide seems to be full length, you can always turn the rotor around and then have a C trombone, pull the rotor tuning slide some and get your below staff Eb!