Tuba in Big Band

[finnbogi]

My big band held a concert last Saturday. One of the pieces we played was Chant by Bob Mintzer. We decided to "go conical", so the trumpet solo was played on flügelhorn and I played the bass trombone solo on my tuba. I think it sounded rather well.
If we get a chance to play it again, we might persuade the first trombone player to play her solo on euphonium, too.

Not quite on topic yet, but hopefully getting there...

[LoyalTubist]

Thanks, Rick, for what you said a couple postings back. I know you are a Texan. I am not and even though I lived in Texas for four years, voted in Texas elections, had a Texas driver's license, and even took a couple of classes at a Texas public institution of higher education at the resident's rate, I was still a Californian. I know not to discuss big with a Texan, because it can lead to serious problems. (Likewise, never discuss bad with a Californian: If you agree with him that California is awful, you might lose a friend!)

The point I began with this whole thing was trying to find which of the major bands of the Big Band Era, some of which were small bands, employed a tuba. And I used Chuck Cecil's arbitrary dates of 1936-1947: from the time Benny Goodman made it in Hollywood to the time when things began clearing up after World War II and the Cold War was beginning.

"Big Band Era" music was not pure jazz. It was swingy pop, Top-40 music, if you will. Bill Barber began to hit the scene in New York at the time, but he was a jazz musician; I don't think he played in any of the pop music bands of the time, at least not regularly.

There was a really awful Jimmy Stewart movie of the time, called Pot of Gold. In fact, Jimmy Stewart said it was the WORST movie he ever made. Anyway, you can find this at Wal-Mart, 99 Cents Only Stores, or Dollar Tree for a buck. This movie was linked with a game show of the time by the same name as the title of the movie. The show was hosted by Horace Heidt and his band played. The movie somewhat centers on that game show. For tuba players, the movie is a real treat because you get to see Horace Heidt's tuba player close up and actually get to hear him. (I think they even list his name in the credits.) Part of the ridiculousness of the movie centers on Jimmy Stewart having to go to jail for assault. Horace Heidt's band pawns their instruments to bail him out. Then the daughter of the landlady of the apartment building, played by Pauline Goddard. where they ALL live pays $200 to get their instruments back so they can play for their radio program.

Bill

[iiipopes]

Hey LoyalTubist: thanks. I think we said the same thing, just from two different perspectives.

[LoyalTubist]

I'm sorry, I saw your posting and thought you were Rick.



Thanks for clearing everything up.

[iiipopes]

Oohh, boy! Wait until Rick does see this one! -- Just kidding

[LoyalTubist]

[finnbogi]

I know not to discuss big with a Texan, because it can lead to serious problems.

When Texans start talking about everything being bigger in Texas, I tend to ask them how big their pint is...

[windshieldbug]

When Texans start talking about everything being bigger in Texas, I tend to ask them how big their pint is...

... and how MANY pints make up a gallon...

[LoyalTubist]

That's jazz. As I stated earlier, Big Band music is not specifically jazz music. It's pop music. The rock 'n' roll, rap, grunge of its time. When you hear Big Band music, you know it.

Example of singers:

Mel Torme would arguably be considered a jazz singer.

Frank Sinatra was, without a doubt, a Big Band singer.

And how soon we forget after Rich has been dead for a few years?

It's Matteson!

[adam0408]

loyal tubist said lots of stuff here....

So what youre saying is that to you, "big band" refers to a style of music and not a particular setup of instrumentation?

What about a large jazz ensemble that plays a latin tune or a bop tune or cool jazz? When I hear the term "big band" to me it doesnt just mean the swingin music of the forties that people danced to. It refers to the ensemble........


I am just trying to get some clarification over semantics.

I am not arguing, I am just curious about what you have to say. Ah well, off to practice for a while. Got a recital coming up. SOOON.

[LoyalTubist]

Exactly (the answer to your first question), I'm really too young to be that kind of authority. You know Big Band music when you hear it. It isn't jazz, necessarily. It's commercial, but it's well-polished. It's a style. Solos are written out and rehearsed (as in "In the Mood" as played by Glenn Miller.) Benny Goodman was both a jazz musician and a Big Band musician and he said there was a difference in the two styles.

Go out and borrow/rent/buy these two movies:

The Glenn Miller Story (Jimmy Stewart)

The Benny Goodman Story (Steve Allen)

Highly fictionalized, yet effective in their intent.

Enjoy.

Bill

[adam0408]

Exactly (the answer to your first question), I'm really too young to be that kind of authority. You know Big Band music when you hear it. It isn't jazz, necessarily. It's commercial, but it's well-polished. It's a style. Solos are written out and rehearsed (as in "In the Mood" as played by Glenn Miller.) Benny Goodman was both a jazz musician and a Big Band musician and he said there was a difference in the two styles.

Go out and borrow/rent/buy these two movies:

The Glenn Miller Story (Jimmy Stewart)

The Benny Goodman Story (Steve Allen)

Highly fictionalized, yet effective in their intent.

Enjoy.

Bill

Yeah I dig. (to be hip to the jazzer's lingo, myself being an enthusiastic if not skilled jazzer)

[tubajoe]

That's jazz. As I stated earlier, Big Band music is not specifically jazz music. It's pop music. The rock 'n' roll, rap, grunge of its time. When you hear Big Band music, you know it.

Yup -- and its basis was a big racial divide; and "big band" or "swing band" or "dance band" or "sweet band" or "Mickey band" (as in Mickey Mouse) was the antethesis of jazz.

While the beat was the similar, the intention was not.

LT is exactly right -- this was the pop music of the day and nothing more -- and tuba was often the bass. Compared to the pop music of the time, Jazz was more of a niche arty daring thing.

The two-beat bands (pre Miller etc) used tuba a lot. There are still a few of these in the Midwest... keeping some tuba players employed with regular tedious gigs for geriatric crowds (and "jazz" is still forbidden)

Now, the funny thing is that some jazz artists did run "dance bands" to pay the bills -- Louis Armstrong was one... played white dance music in segregated clubs (this was aside to his jazz). Dance bands could also play polkas, and some saccharin latin grooves too... rhumbas, beguines etc.

In the late 40's dance bands got big, and that I think is where "Big Bands" sorta come from... bass lines went into 4, and tuba was replaced.


Later on, the lines blurred a bit after Miller with Basie and Ellington... as those bands had their "dance" tunes as well as their "jazz" tunes, in addition to an amazing evolution.

...which is where the evolution of the "jazz band" came and the dance band thing sorta died into the 50's and 60's. Big bands still existed, but moreso in a 'show band' vibe (ala Sinatra etc) still most often with racial segregation in tact -- and the amount of improvisation/intensity of harmony used went along those lines too, as Basie's and Ellington's music got heavier and more involved - then spurned bands like Mingus etc... which still used that Big Band instrumentation (ala Miller) but were outright jazz, based in progressive arrangements and bop-ish improvisation.


The thing is that Big Band music was intended to make people dance... Jazz was not... and that was another reason for the separation.

In fact I have a live Kenton album where he jokes about this with the crowd, then rips a face-peeling rendition of a dance tune - Satin Doll (which no one could have danced to)


Another part of this is the ROLE of the tuba... Dance bands used tuba as the bass (ala pre-Pierson Lombardo), and later some jazz bands (Kenton, Maynard, Miles/Evans) used it as a horn. The role is quite different, as are the parts, and even the equipment used.

The tradition continues -- and players still tend to gravitate towards one role or the other.

discuss.

[LoyalTubist]

The most obvious Big Band era band's use of a tuba was in Sammy Kaye's band. None of the Big Bands I know actually used the tuba as the bass of the group, although it might have reinforced the string bass player. Sammy Kaye's band had a sweet sound, almost as schmaltzy as Guy Lombardo (remember, he really didn't figure in as a "Big Band", he was a holdover from the 1920s!) but it swung. Kay Kyser also used the tuba prominently. I think he was probably the first to consider the tuba as part of the trombone section, even though the tuba used was an old King recording bass. Kyser gave the impression that he was a fun guy, yet he was an absolute tyrant as a leader. No facial hair. No drinking on tour. When he would play for Army posts and Naval bases, some of the servicemen who saw him prepare with his group for a show would comment that Kay Kyser was stricter than anyone they saw in the military. That doesn't sound like a jazz group.



Kay Kyser

[LoyalTubist]

This is a picture of the Sammy Kaye band in the late 1930s. As you can see, the tuba player and the bass player were one in the same. I just received this picture, so I stand corrected and go along with what TubaJoe was saying.



Sammy Kaye

I just noticed... THERE ARE NO TRUMPETS IN THIS PICTURE!

AHHHH! PARADISE!

[LoyalTubist]

And this is a picture of the Kay Kyser band. If you notice, the tuba player is standing behind the recording bass (which is being held in a tuba stand) and he is the light haired man singing next to the bass player. The setup was for a movie--I don't think this was KK's normal setup.

[LoyalTubist]

This is the Horace Heidt band. I know it's blurry, but it's the only picture I could find. You can watch the movie Pot o' Gold for a good picture of the tuba player. Oh, his sponsor on radio was Hire's Root Beer, so his slogan was, "It's Heidt time for Hires!"



Horace Heidt

[tubajoe]

That's pretty much the standard 2-beat "dance band" setup -- drums, tuba (double on upright bass -- often metal), 1 bone, 2 tpts, and from 3-5 saxes and sometimes guitar and/or banjo (which was as much of a percussion instrument as chordal).

That was kind of the standard thru the 30s into the 40s for traveling bands I think.

Later, things got bigger with Miller and Goodman etc...

...which also led to basslines in 4 and the elimination of the tuba as a bass rhythm section instrument.

[LoyalTubist]

I see the trumpet now.

[tubajoe]

This is the Horace Heidt band.

This one is probably a dance band setup too -- but more "orchestral" with those front players being a string section and the back row being the horn players. Notice the two guitars. Probably a greatly expanded setup, for a movie or the likes.