Why do pro orchestras ask for a resume?

[tubaman5150]

Why do professional orchestras ask for a resume for those auditioning for full time tuba chairs?
I can understand sub jobs where time is an issue or those jobs associated with teaching positions.
But why not just sign up and take a number?
I think with all the headaches lately concerning pedigrees and trendy names that have popped up in orchestra auditions, that the commitee, in no way, should have the names or backgrounds during the audition. I even don't think they should even see the candidates until the "play with the section" round and even then only known as "tuba 1, 2, 3, 4...etc".
What do you folks think?

[adam0408]

Sounds good to me. Although experience can be VERY important for a player, which is why they include a resume I am sure. They probably don't want some wet-behind-the-ears kid that sounds really really good on the stuff they have prepared the heck out of, because you never know how they will perform under pressure.

[adam0408]

^^^^^ And this is why I love this forum. There is so much wisdom present among the tom-foolery.

[Gator]

Initially the reume used to do a preliminary screening of applicants.

Depending on the orchestra, once the audition process has begun, the resume is only used in the finals, to give both the committee and the Music Director a background on a finalist. The most important item that we look for are the recent audition history of an applicant (like a finalist or semi-finalist for a major symphony orchestra audition). Holding a position in a major symphony orchestra will guarantee you an audition and depending on your position, it may get you into the semi-final round. If you have little or no experience, we request a tape.

An audition committee can hear about 45 preliminary applicants in one day (6/hr.). If we had time to listen to 150, that would take about 25 hours! During the course of an eight service week, there is just not enough time to do this, even over the course of several weeks. And, I may add, an added expense for those who would have to make the trip twice plus those that have to give up work and pay for a substitute.

[windshieldbug]

I will repeat what these gentlemen have said very eloquently. The committees that I've been on don't even see these in preliminary rounds.

They are used with the CDs to see to see who is likely to have a decent audition. I've never been at a job where no experience would overrule a great CD. That will get you in the door. Never-the-less, I've sat through days where the candidates have almost all crashed and burned. What you want to do is save everbody some money.

The resume ONLY comes into play in the finals, and then only if all other things are equal. I can't remember a case in MY experience that it made a difference in who got the job.

[tubaman5150]

We do not see these things until the screen comes down, and then only if there is a question about the candidate's experience level. We might ask a few quick questions to see how they handle themselves or whether they are a screaming jerk that needs to be passed over. This Q&A can be very telling, trust me . . .

We never know these folks names in most cases.

Further, when a local player is auditioning, we will often leave the screen up for finals to avoid having a familiar face influence what we think that we are hearing.

Resumes are one of several vetting processes that we use to cut the "experience getters" out of the game. An audition is an anonymous job interview of sorts. Anyone coming to get experience is eliminated as fast as possible. An orchestra is a business. An audition is costly to the business. Giving a bunch of inexperienced players "experience" is not what we do. The sole purpose of convening an audition committee is to hire a replacement musician. That is it.

It is sad just how poorly the vast majority of people play at an audition; it is an unusual amount of pressure. This applies to all instruments and not just tuba. People just flat out fail to subdivide, keep perfect time, stay in tune with themselves, articulate clearly, et cetera. And these time wasters are the ones that have good resumes. Committees only want to hear really great players. There has never been an audition committee in history that wanted to sit through forty candidates and enjoyed hearing them all crash. The committee only wants to hear people that will make good colleagues. They are the most supportive audience that you will ever play for. Can you fault them for not wanting to hear hours of crap that can sometimes drag on for days?

Remember that an audition is not a contest. Far from it, an audition is a job interview and that is all it is. Not only do you have to execute 100% of everything ask of you, you must also play musically (as determined by the standards of the Music Director, the Concertmaster, all of the Principals from each section, et cetera) and you must also look and act like a professional as well. You are asking these people to let you sit with them and make music for what might end up being thirty years or more.

Again, the resume is just to get you in the door. If you are not getting accepted because of your resume then you probably would only be an experience-getter. Not certainly, but probably. If you are a freak of nature like CJ then you will have a reputation that will precede you and your minimal resume will not matter.

An orchestra is a business. Submitting a resume and then presenting yourself for an interview/examination of your skills is normal in the business world and *gasp* is also normal in the music world.

Are you trying to say that someone hiring an engineer in a very competitive, national-level job market ought to have a sign-up sheet or let in anyone that wants to be an engineer? Because that is exactly the same thing as what you are talking about. The company hiring the engineer has the right to use any sort of vetting process it can to save the interviewer time in selecting the best candidate.

You make some good points, but I must disagree on a few:
1. An audition is a contest on the most basic level. Would you agree that a commitee wants the best of the best in their ears? Points are given in most cases and there are advancing rounds. I agree professionalism is part of it, but that goes without saying.
2. How you define an "experience-getter"? As we have seen from the Philadelphia audition, serving time in the "trenches" is not always necessary. CJ had to fight to get heard from what I understand and she had the chops, regardless of reputation, to win. How does one get experience enough to count for major orchestra? Certainly college degrees, amateur ensembles and local orchestras do not a better player make. Better players take advantage of those things for their own advancement.
I also know several tuba players who have subbed and played with major orchestras who "fail to subdivide, keep perfect time, stay in tune with themselves, articulate clearly, et cetera". Experience only is meaningful when used to improve one's ability in a given situation.
3. I can understand the use of resumes to thin the herd, but where do you draw the line? I agree that only a small percentage of players will have the chops, but how does a resume differentiate these players from the top notch ones?
4. "If you are not getting accepted because of your resume then you probably would only be an experience-getter. Not certainly, but probably."
The problem is not making it past the resume round. I feel the problem is that reputation and pedigree are too big an influence during the audition. The certainly is not true in all cases, but how often is it so?
I also realize that beyond a certain level, auditions are very subjective to the tastes of the commitee. This is not what I'm referring to nor is it a negative thing.

I understand your point of view and I respect your opinion.
I just think many top notch players get passed over for lesser ones because of words on a piece of paper.
Anyway...
That's life. Thank God for TubeNet so I can rant about it with you cool folks.

[windshieldbug]

But my question would be how can people looking for experieence get any if they continually get shot down at auditions? Im not ready yet to audition for a group but when I am, I expect to have a fair shake just like everyone else. Thats all I ask.

Tough task to get work. There never were all that may jobs to begin with, and number isn't getting any bigger.

Sub, play small. Many of the people I played with had to play with orchestras abroad, and then start low in the US and work their way up the food chain of orchestras. People coming out of business schools don't expect to even get interviews for a VP job, much less be able to get the gig.

[jdsalas]

Looking for orchestras abroad is a really good idea. Sometimes I feel like we often limit ourselves by only focusing on orchestras in the US. There are plenty of opportunities if you are willing to move (and not get paid too much!). You have to deal with alot (cultural differences, money, etc.) but it can also provide for a real life changing experience.

[Thomas Maurice Booth]

[quote="tubaman5150"]Why do professional orchestras ask for a resume for those auditioning for full time tuba chairs?
I can understand sub jobs where time is an issue or those jobs associated with teaching positions.
But why not just sign up and take a number?
I think with all the headaches lately concerning pedigrees and trendy names that have popped up in orchestra auditions, that the commitee, in no way, should have the names or backgrounds during the audition. I even don't think they should even see the candidates until the "play with the section" round and even then only known as "tuba 1, 2, 3, 4...etc".
What do you folks think?[/quote]


sounds like someone is complaining due to THEIR lack of experience to put on a resume. I guarantee if you had some sort of big job to list, or some excellent experience you would NOT mind making/sending your resume.

TMB

[quinterbourne]

Yeah, if you don't have any experience, you should not be trying out for a major orchestra (unless your name is Carol Jantsch). Start with smaller civic or community orchestras and work your way up. Do prestigious music festivals (ie Tanglewood). If you are "good enough" for a major orchestra, then you should have no trouble getting into any of the above.

Many smaller orchestras and festivals don't really require any experience at all - it's just according to the audition. This is usually because they are only hiring you for a single year, so they don't need to fret over making a long term decision (plus the pickin' often ain't so great).

[windshieldbug]

Yeah, if you don't have any experience, you should not be trying out for a major orchestra (unless your name is Carol Jantsch). Start with smaller civic or community orchestras and work your way up. Do prestigious music festivals (ie Tanglewood). If you are "good enough" for a major orchestra, then you should have no trouble getting into any of the above

Ms Jantsch had done touring, overseas work, and broadcasts in addition to festivals, so she didn't come from "nowhere". In fact, if I remember correctly, it was her festival audition CD that was recommended by a committee member that got her into a VERY exclusive and high powered audition. She certainly seemed to take advantage of the attention she got as an undergrad and used it very wisely to gain "experience" opportunities and visibility. And obviously deserved it.

[tubaman5150]

Yeah, if you don't have any experience, you should not be trying out for a major orchestra (unless your name is Carol Jantsch). Start with smaller civic or community orchestras and work your way up. Do prestigious music festivals (ie Tanglewood). If you are "good enough" for a major orchestra, then you should have no trouble getting into any of the above

Ms Jantsch had done touring, overseas work, and broadcasts in addition to festivals, so she didn't come from "nowhere". In fact, if I remember correctly, it was her festival audition CD that was recommended by a committee member that got her into a VERY exclusive and high powered audition. She certainly seemed to take advantage of the attention she got as an undergrad and used it very wisely to gain "experience" opportunities and visibility. And obviously deserved it.

Absolutely.
I do not know Carol Jantsch, but I would have to guess she got where she was after some extreme amount of work and relentlessness. Talent was only part of it.
It's really starting bug me with all implications that she is some sort of circus freak who just picked up the tuba one day and decided to win Philadelphia.
She earned her reputation and even more so because of her age.

[jdsalas]

Networking and exposure are a huge part of this business no matter how much experience you have or don’t have.

There are opportunities out there that a lot of people don’t take advantage of – A good example is the Bay View festival that is still looking for a tuba player and is willing to pay full tuition. I know some of these festivals cost a pretty penny but if you plan ahead you might be able to find some financial aid from community sources.

There are other opportunities like the Disney groups & Henry Mancini Program that give players some real challenging experiences and even pay a stipend.

[quinterbourne]

I certainly never meant to imply that I thought that CJ has not put a great deal of work into her playing, nor that it was just a fluke that she won the audition. I fear you guys may be reading too much into what is not in my post

I was referring to the fact that her initial application to audition for the orchestra was rejected, no doubt due to lack of experience. Obviously she had some experience of some sort, but what got her in was her AMAZING playing ability.

Very, very few people (0.001%) of those who's application to audition for a major orchestra is rejected come even remotely close to the talent (and of course, hard work) of CJ.

[sloan]

.....a few years ago a foreign orchestra (Australia?) screened applicants by requiring that anyone invited to the audition had to have spent a summer at Tanglewood...I don't know the specifics, but I remember that aspect of it, and the winner was a Tanglewood alum.

Well, if you had to be at Tanglewood to get an audition, it's a pretty good bet that the winner would be a Tanglewood alum!

[TubaRay]

.....a few years ago a foreign orchestra (Australia?) screened applicants by requiring that anyone invited to the audition had to have spent a summer at Tanglewood...I don't know the specifics, but I remember that aspect of it, and the winner was a Tanglewood alum.

Well, if you had to be at Tanglewood to get an audition, it's a pretty good bet that the winner would be a Tanglewood alum!

Elementary, my dear Watson.

[tubaman5150]

Orchestras need ticket buyers, patrons, personal donors, corporate donors, and just about any sort of stuff that can be turned into $$$$$$$$'s

When a position is open, an orchestra (corporately) views this as an opportunity to bring more publicity (thus $$$$$$$$$'s) to the orchestra. That (besides other obvious reasons) is why experience is important. Sean Chisham (and a trombonist in a major orchestra) both think there ends up being one obvious person who plays the very best on a given day. That may be true, and likely is true. When one hears tuba players "warming up" in their rooms prior to auditions, it is fairly obvious that there are quite a few terrible applicants and quite a few who would fit in to any orchestra "just fine". When one hears recordings of some long-standing orchestral tuba players playing solos and concerti, it is also fairly obvious that it is pretty easy to keep a tuba job, once one is obtained. Going back to the publicity issue, I believe the young lady who was recently appointed fit into many desired molds: playing ability, young, attractive, and unique...the final three being extremely large publicity factors. Please read this very carefully. You could avoid typing a thoughtless flame: If she played at least as well as the second-best applicant, in my view it would have been impossible for her to lose.

Though the idea of publicity being a factor in auditions disturbs me, this is the best explanation I've heard about this subject.

[iiipopes]

So, what's new? The only difference between being in orchestra and being in any other aspect of the entertainment business is that she probably won't have a swarm of papparazzi trying to cop a nude photograph for the Enquirer or the net.

[windshieldbug]

Maybe, but she will have to listen to the jokes of the trombone players...