BAT's all around

[Dean E]

Hello Ray,

I can understand your reservations. I have tested a few big horms that suck the air right out of me like a vacuum cleaner. Recently someone posted, "They don't play themselves."

How do you feel when you play a BAT?

Why not save the cash for a down payment on a condo?

[Naptown Tuba]

[quote="chops80"]The question comes, since I am possibly buying this as my first and last tuba, what is the pheasability of using a BAT as an "all-around" horn.

Hopefully, you'll have a long a prosperous life. And believe me, your first tuba won't be your last. Undoubtedly, there will be many tubas for you in your lifetime. There are too many colors and textures of sound waiting out there to experiment with, (and so many promises of the "Tuba makers" of the end all tuba.) Select your tuba for what you want to do with it at this moment in time. When a change occurs, (and it will) move on to one that seems to suit you for those needs. Most likely, you'll end up as many of us have: with several different tubas providing us with a choice of how we want to sound while playing different styles and types of music. Enjoy!

[quinterbourne]

If you want just one tuba to do everything, do not get a 6/4 horn. These monster horns DO NOT work well in brass quintet, tuba quartet, solos and most wind band, brass band & orchestral literature.

Sure, every once and a while it would be nice to have a BAT when you play Mahler, Shostie or Prokofiev. But how often is that? And how often is that when you are playing with a group that is good enough for you to not always get "the hand."

My teacher, who plays in a professional orchestra, owns a PT-6p (5/4+) as well as a 4/4 York. She RARELY ever brings in the 6 because it is just too much sound. She does not play in the CSO.

Most orchestras play lighter music, like Tchaik, instead of heavier stuff. Most tuba sections in bands are large enough that you don't need a BAT. If you are the ONLY tuba player is a really good band, then maybe.

What you want to do is get a good 4/4 horn. It will serve you through solos, quintet, band and orchestra. When, and if, you are playing with a large professional group such as the CSO, then ADD the BAT to your 4/4.

[tofu]

Seems that an awful lot of folks who have BATs shouldn't. There is a certain group of folks who want to dominate their section/band. They revel in the fact that everybody can HEAR them and it stands out so much that only the guy in the audience with the arrow through his head can't be awed by the power of the BAT.

These folks are musicians in name only. A quality 4/4 sized tuba probably is capable of handling more than 95% of a tuba players needs. A BAT is an instrument which fulfills a niche need and seem to have on average worse intonation issues than most 4/4 horns. Plus you got to haul the thing around and many of them require more not less air to play them well. Not mention holding them while playing.

It would be like having a semi-trailer for your all around everyday vehicle. Sure you could do it - imagine the looks on the other parents faces as you navigate the traffic circle at little Johnny's grade school as you drop him off - but would you really want the hassle of doing so just because you might move your household belongings every 10 years and that semi-trailer would be really handy then.

[trseaman]

It just has to be controlled much more carefully like driving a powerful car.

I agree but I also think that control is what some people lack... Owning a BAT and playing it properly are two different things and that point is blurred because of the elite status that BAT owners have placed upon them selves. It's the same as owning a $15K horn and not being able to play it and owning a $2K beater and playing it like a pro... It all comes down to the sound that you produce. Would I like to own one? Yes! But my 4/4 does just fine for my current situation.

Tim

[Bandmaster]

Well, I guess it all depends on WHAT kind of BAT you play? The Holton 345 in my avatar, the one I am having Dan Oberloh restore, just played so easy with such a great sound that I decided to spend the money to restore it. It doesn't need a lot of air to sound good, but it can take a lot of air if you want to push it. It sounded so nice at low levels and high that I just fell in love with it. I also got lots of compliments on the sound I make with it, so that didn't hurt either. As far as it's size, I'm 6'6" and 300 lbs so it is not an issue with me. I have played several other big horns and they just didn't give me the same feeling. So I guess it is "whatever rocks your boat". If you like your horn and the sound you can make with it, it doesn't matter what it is. Be happy!

[windshieldbug]

I did everything with a large 4/4, and the first thing I got when I got the chance was a 3/4 for quintet and then a 6/4 F. I love a BAT's sound, but if I was you, I'd see what I needed first, and buy accordingly. That was what my teacher (god bless his soul) insisted on, and I found he was right!

[Rick Denney]

If you want just one tuba to do everything, do not get a 6/4 horn. These monster horns DO NOT work well in brass quintet, tuba quartet, solos and most wind band, brass band & orchestral literature.

I don't disagree with your advice, and my own response to the original poster is to get the tuba that is the most fun to play. There is no other reason for an amateur to own a tuba. How one defines "fun" is another matter.

But I think you go too far in your statement. There are many bands and orchestras whose players use their large tubas for most of what they play.

Big tubas are not about making loud. They are about making deep. To make a deep sound, they require a full and lively set of overtones to reinforce the fundamental pitch. Pros seem to be referring to this when they use the word "color", but I'll call it "zip". It's the opposite of the woofy sound that many get from their big horns. Those large tubas whose overtones have that zip to them are not difficult to play and do not "suck the air out of you". They actually play quietly more easily than many smaller instruments, and they can provide a focused sound even if it does have a lot of depth. Thus, it's not the difference between a large tuba and a small tuba, it's the difference between a good large tuba and a not-so-good large tuba.

I usually play the Holton in my small community band, without regard to the literature. I find it easier to lay out a good floor for the group than with a smaller tuba (and I have both 5/4 and 4/4 tubas of good quality).

But I agree that it is a little difficult to make a big horn do for all situations. Some situations need a bass tuba sound, and some need to be more of a trombone sound. I use a 3/4 F tuba in most quintet applications. I love the Holton but I'm not sure it would quite do as an only instrument.

Some orchestras and conductors don't want a floor from the tuba, however. They prefer something more vertical than horizontal, if that makes any sense.

I recall Jay Bertolet saying he went from 15% large-tuba usage to 85% large-tuba usage upon replacing his highly modified Cerveny 601 with a Nirschl York copy. A zippy big tuba is more versatile than people think, especially those who are unlucky enough to have never played one. But he still kept his smaller tubas.

Rick "who didn't 'get' BAT's until the Holton came along" Denney

[AndyL]

monster horns DO NOT work well in brass quintet, tuba quartet, solos and most wind band, brass band & orchestral literature.

That's quite a revelation!

Don't tell John Philip Sousa......I've seen pictures of his band with 4-6 jumbo sousaphones at the height of it's popularity.

[Lee Stofer]

My $0.02 - Try all the instruments you can and buy the one that works best for you and is within your budget, regardless of size. I own an F tuba now that is sometimes mistaken for a large euphonium because it is so small, but it really works well for me, and puts out a lot of sound. I also have a 5/4 rose brass Rudolf Meinl CC that is light and nimbe, has the "zip" that Rick Denney describes, and could work very well as my only instrument. Sometimes size is an illusion. there are wonderful tubas out there of every shape and size, and there are also some really bad tubas out there in every size.

Happy Hunting!

[Lew]

Even though I've never personally met any of cats, the two things I KNOW about all of you guys that "collect" Tubas:

1. You got more money than I do.
2. You got more space than I do.

Tuck

LOL

You should talk to Mike Lynch some time.

[Dylan King]

I play on the largest CC tuba (Yorkbrunner) and the smallest F (YFB-621). It seems to be working for me so far, but I do wish the Yorkbrunner was a bit lighter.

A BAT can sound great at any volume. It is made to sound great, and provide a wide range of overtones and depth of sound. It can also pop out a light sound, which is the tough part for inexperienced BAT players. A combination of the right mouthpiece and the right sound in ones head should produce good results for most people on the big tubas.

They aren't for everyone!

BATS are LARGE. Great for a big guy like me, but difficult to hold for someone of smaller stature. I flip my horn and have to constantly dump water, and I think it would be tough for someone with smaller arms. I have handed my horn over to many players who have trouble getting comfortable holding the thing.

They acquire more dents too. Having such a heavy, bulky instrument increases ones chances for damage.

It's really about more sound with less air. And for players with lots of air, even better. Bring on the bigger horn.

When I played on my 185 Mirafone CC in the UCLA orchestra before I got my Yorkbrunner, Jon Robertson, the director there would sometimes tell me to pull back in volume. Once I had the Yorkbrunner, he only wanted more. So it isn't sheer volume as much as it is sound.

He loved the sound of the Yorkbrunner, and said it blended better than the pea-shooting Mirafone, which actually played louder. I sold the Mirafone and never looked back.

These days I play such a diversity of instruments I am actually thinking about trading down. My career has gone in a way where I will never join an orchestra again, and I'd like a lighter and smaller CC for comfort and space issues. I don't know if I could ever get that 6/4 sound on a 4/4, but I don't need it anymore either.

Besides, these days I do the vast majority of my playing on the little Yami F. I can wear that thing on my belt like a six shooter, and play four octaves with ease.

That is all for now. Have a nice day.

-MSM

[joshwirt]

I'll have to agree with the previous post that it's not so much about the volume of sound from a 6/4, but moreso the quality. I had played a variety of CC's in a variety of settings and was very happy with my HB-2P for the versitility and color palette.....until I played with a full-on brass section in a performance of Mahler 5 last year in Manchester, UK. There was just no way that I could keep up with them on a 4/4, so I borrowed a PT-6P for the gig.

Long story short, I sold the 2P back to the original owner because I wanted it back in good hands....and he really wanted it back for his job. At the same time, I came across a fabulous Yorkbrunner from a NYC freelancer and was able to jump on it. That horn completely changed my views on BAT's or 6/4's or whatever. It was as big as I wanted it to be and as nimble as I could make it. It was all about the quality of sound.

My life has changed paths and I felt that I couldn't justify such an instrument to not be used, so I traded it for a couple of horns that I can (and do) use quite often. I was able to find another BAT in my 2165 that I now have and I don't know if I could go back to a smaller CC at this point. Again, just the sound of this thing.

BTW, my Yorkbrunner is the newer, machine-made Hirsbrunner that's still for sale at Baltimore Brass.....phenomenal instrument that needs to be sitting in the back row somewhere.

-Josh

[Chuck(G)]

Cats:

Refresh my memory:

What are the available BBb BATS?

I'm talking mass-produced. I know about the $18k behemoth (sp?)that, I believe, Lee Stofer has.

If and when I ever trade out of this King that I just bought, a BBb BAT is the most likely candidate.

There's more than a little difference in opinions on the matter. Some say to qualify as a BAT, the design must be a wide-bell American-style horn. Others say any old big tuba is a BAT.

For example, a Miraphone 190--a great hulking cavern of a tuba--would not qualify in some folks' books. Some think that the quality of sound qualifies the instrument--for example,

I once owned a Cazzani-Rampone rotary BBb with a 22" bell and 0.900 bore. But I wouldn't call it a BAT--it used a very strange taper thoughout the instrument, so that the bottom bow wasn't much larger than one you'd find on a 3/4 American BBb (all the taper was in the bell). Wonderful loud mid- and high-range, but lacking in the big warm lows that you'd expect from a horn that large, sort of a contrabass flugelhorn.

Exactly what constitutes a BAT seems to be open to discussion.

[Rick Denney]

What are the available BBb BATS?

Big tubas really fall into two categories, Fat American-style BAT's and Kaiser tubas. The Fafner is more Kaiser than BAT, but the one I tried out was quite impressive. The Willson 3100 is quite large, but it doesn't have the same easy resonance of a good BAT. There is the Rudy 5/4, but that's Kaiser all the way. The Rudy 6/4 is in a class by itself.

If you want a true York-style BAT in Bb, then you have to wait for a good Holton 345 to come along, or make do with a big Conn like a 24J or Orchestra Grand Bass. The Conns have a notoriously flat third partial, and the Holtons range from world-class to howl-at-the-moon. There are large Martins, Yorks, and other old American instruments, but they are quite rare. The Holtons and Conns were at least made in the post-war period.

If I wanted to buy a new one and wanted a large tuba, the Fafner would be mighty high on my list.

Rick "who waited for the right old one to come along and then pounced" Denney

[iiipopes]

Neptunes do come in rotary as well.
http://www.vogtlaendische-musik.de/tuba/

[MartyNeilan]

BATS are LARGE. Great for a big guy like me, but difficult to hold for someone of smaller stature. I flip my horn and have to constantly dump water, and I think it would be tough for someone with smaller arms. I have handed my horn over to many players who have trouble getting comfortable holding the thing.

FWIW, I am barely 5'7 and not overly muscular, but I have never had any issues with larger tubas except leadpipe height. I have owned some pretty big horns including a Mirafone "Daisy Cutter" 190, a 6/4 Martin, a tall 5/4 1290, and currently a 2155R (large 5/4 very close to a BAT). In some of those cases, I either had the pipe lowered or used a DEG stand to lower the horn. I sometimes sit on a cushion on those "scooped" chairs as well. Even the MW "big valves" that everyone complains about didn't seem to out of the ordinary and cause me any issues. I really don't think you need to be King King to play a big tuba. There are the stories of a well known tuba player who would sit on the phone book to reach the leadpipe on his Yorkbrunner. Why settle for a smaller horn if you have the chops or desire to play a big one? Who says only the "big guys" can play a big horn!

P.S. My "lil" bass trombone takes more air than ANY of the above mentioned tubas!

current stable:

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I've heard that its a tuning nightmare and that's why it's never sold.

I consider my Neptune update appropriate to this thread since some might consider it a BAT

I played a very nice example of the piston Neptune, some years ago. It didn't seem to have any real intonation issues.

[MartyNeilan]

Rudy Meinl 6/4 BBb

Would that be the immense silver beast Lee Stofer had on his website a few months back??

[iiipopes]

Because of the extra resonance available, didn't Jacobs say that the smaller the person, the bigger the tuba, or something to that effect?