Learning F fingerings, and Cerveny valve trombones.

drewfus · Post by **drewfus** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:25 pm

I am considering the purchase of a Cerveny bass valve trombone for use in our community jazz band. They are keyed in F, but it looks like many of the fingerings are the same as BBb. My logic is that I could then jump to an F tuba if the need arose.

Any opinions on the Cerveny valve trombones?

(yes I checked the archives too)

Ace · Post by **Ace** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:19 pm

I owned and played a Cerveny bass trombone in F for about ten years. The horn has four very smooth and fast rotary valves, and the construction and finish of the instrument are first rate. Tone quality and dynamic range are very good, but if you play this thing in orchestra be prepared for some curious looks and whispered comments from the trombones and tuba players. The sound is not quite like a standard bass trombone, lacking some bite and snarl. The horn has a Euro mouthpiece receiver and ships with a 3G m/p. I used Schilke shaved shank 58 and 59 mouthpieces. The guy in southern California that bought this trombone from me used a small F tuba mouthpiece on it and it sounded unbelievely good.

Beware of the weight of this horn. If you are not a strong, large person you will probably have insufferable back aches playing through extended passages such as are found in pieces like Mozart's Requiem. I'm 6' 2", 230 lbs. and the weight still bothered me. I finally got wise and designed a device to hang the front end of the horn off of the music stand tray. That relieved a lot of the strain on back muscles. You would NOT want to march with one of these horns.

I think these horns can be had new for about $1400. Quite a bit less expensive than a good standard bass trombone with rotor(s) and slide.

evan · Post by **evan** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:52 pm

Apparently they have a version of this F bass trombone adjusted for seated players:

http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... _576Cg.htm

What's the difference between that and a cimbasso? Do cimbassos have conical bores?

bort · Post by **bort** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:10 pm

I think I'd get more mileage out of a bass slide-trombone and an F tuba. But if it plays well and you like it, then go for it!

Ace · Post by **Ace** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:16 pm

Here's another cimbasso-type instrument.

http://www.orsi-wind-instruments.it/brass.htm

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:13 pm

And if you do go F-tuba or F-cimbasso here's the fingering chart, right here on TubeNet:
http://www.chisham.com/tips/fingerings/F.html

drewfus · Post by **drewfus** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:16 am

bort wrote:I think I'd get more mileage out of a bass slide-trombone and an F tuba. But if it plays well and you like it, then go for it!

I think I can learn F fingerings easier than slide positions and thumb triggers.

I was originally planning to use it just for jazz band work. From the comments though, it sounds as though it might be a good ensemble item too.

Weight? How about a strap from a belt loop in the small of your back to behind your shoulder, use your shoulder as a fulcrum.

The prices I have seen are very reasonable too. If anybody else has one for $500 since Bloke is fresh out, I would be interested.

Ace · Post by **Ace** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:12 pm

drewfus wrote:
bort wrote: The prices I have seen are very reasonable too. If anybody else has one for $500 since Bloke is fresh out, I would be interested.

I had my Cerveny F bass trombone for 10 years, and I sold it for over $900. I had a beat up 4 rotary-valve C tenor trombone (70 years old?) that I sold for $450. These odd trombones don't come cheap, but I hope you find a good one that is in your budget. They are really fun to play.

ArnoldGottlieb · Post by **ArnoldGottlieb** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:54 am

drewfus wrote:
bort wrote:I think I'd get more mileage out of a bass slide-trombone and an F tuba. But if it plays well and you like it, then go for it!
I think I can learn F fingerings easier than slide positions and thumb triggers.

I was originally planning to use it just for jazz band work. From the comments though, it sounds as though it might be a good ensemble item too.

Weight? How about a strap from a belt loop in the small of your back to behind your shoulder, use your shoulder as a fulcrum.

The prices I have seen are very reasonable too. If anybody else has one for $500 since Bloke is fresh out, I would be interested.

A person who post's under the name Yorkie C. had one for sale and still might.
Peace.
ASG

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:44 pm

Bob1062 wrote: In about 2 years when I get a mortgage, I will be able to buy some cool horns

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:42 pm

MartyNeilan wrote:
Bob1062 wrote: In about 2 years when I get a mortgage, I will be able to buy some cool horns

Just wait until you see the vintage horns he can afford when he gets married and has kids!

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:12 pm

Bob1062 wrote:In about 2 years when I get a mortage, I will be able to buy some cool horns

That is SO funny!

LoyalTubist · Post by **LoyalTubist** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:06 pm

windshieldbug wrote:
MartyNeilan wrote:
Bob1062 wrote: In about 2 years when I get a mortgage, I will be able to buy some cool horns

Just wait until you see the vintage horns he can afford when he gets married and has kids!

Wait until the wife tells you to leave the house and you still have to pay for her house and your own apartment you live in and still pay for the kids' expenses.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:21 pm

LoyalTubist wrote:Wait until the wife tells you to leave the house and you still have to pay for her house and your own apartment you live in and still pay for the kids' expenses.

The cluelessness makes his situation all that much more funny, certainly not yours!

LoyalTubist · Post by **LoyalTubist** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:15 pm

I have become an excellent scavenger. Don't be surprised if, someday, you see a Lakers baseball cap for sale on eBay which I picked up on the ground during my morning walk today.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:44 pm

LoyalTubist wrote:I have become an excellent scavenger. Don't be surprised if, someday, you see a Lakers baseball cap for sale on eBay which I picked up on the ground during my morning walk today.

I wondered what happened to that cap! I've been looking for it all day!

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:58 am

Using a Cerveny rotary F valve trombone for jazz may lead to some disappointment.

The Czech/German and the US ideas of trombone sound are very different. The US ideal being much more alive and bright.

The valved F-bass trombone is known from from the older Czech-German tradition, but it was never very common. Some research points towards Dvorak having written at least some of his orchestral trombone parts for a section of valve trombones.

I have considered this Cerveny for some years, but I did not like the fairly small bore (smaller than even small euphoniums) and the lack of a full size bass trombone receiver.

Furthermore 4 valves are too few for an F instrument. The low Bb is often called for in jazz charts for the 5th bone. Unless you can set up some slide pulling or trigger facility, there will be no good fingering for that low Bb.

You may compare the Cerveny specs

http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... mbones.htm

with those of Meinl-Weston

http://www.meinl-weston.com/cimbasso.htm

But then the latter for most people will take a tenured seat in an (opera-)orchestra willing to buy one for them. I donâ€™t even dare to guess about the price of neither a Meinl-Weston nor of a Rudolf Meinl

http://212.227.240.153/rudolf-meinl/seite5_5.html

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

PS: As for balance, the VPO had a straight cimbasso, which was so front heavy, that the player had mounted a hook for the lower bow at his music stand.

drewfus · Post by **drewfus** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:05 am

imperialbari wrote:Using a Cerveny rotary F valve trombone for jazz may lead to some disappointment.

The Czech/German and the US ideas of trombone sound are very different. The US ideal being much more alive and bright.

The valved F-bass trombone is known from from the older Czech-German tradition, but it was never very common. Some research points towards Dvorak having written at least some of his orchestral trombone parts for a section of valve trombones.

I have considered this Cerveny for some years, but I did not like the fairly small bore (smaller than even small euphoniums) and the lack of full size bass trombone receiver.

I did find a Josef Lidl 4 valve Bb that I am trying to talk myself out of. It is a .520 bore with a 9.25 inch bell.