Sousaphone?

Udi · Post by **Udi** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:44 pm

Hey there fellows. I'm a young tuba player playing jazz, funk and "popular" music. I play in a brass band that plays very dance×©ble music, and I like to move around alot when I play with it - dance, twirl, walk around the stage. Sometimes we do marching gigs, so we all move alot. Thing is, I play a B&S PT6, a big C symphonic tuba with a great sound. I love playing it, and feel the sound is worth carrying that monster, but lately I've come to realize it may heart my health, and surely demages my embouchure. I'm thinking of playing a sousaphone or maybe a smaller tuba, but I'm not willing to lose that warm, big sound. Someone recomanded to me the Conn 20k sousaphone, others said no sousaphone will ever sound as good as a tuba. What say you?

Here are some photos to let you get the feel of it:
<img src="http://static.flickr.com/27/43893798_1aeac530ef_m.jpg" width="236" height="240" alt="" />
http://flickr.com/photos/pilcaroo/75724409/
http://flickr.com/photos/pilcaroo/119516125/
http://flickr.com/photos/pilcaroo/43893796/
http://flickr.com/photos/pilcaroo/42845145/
and to go with these, a few short sound samples:
http://marshdondurma.com/mus/Hadera.mp3
http://marshdondurma.com/mus/conamigos1.mp3
http://marshdondurma.com/mus/Disco.mp3

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:00 pm

Some of the older, all brass sousaphones are nothing more than an upright tuba wrapped in a circle. If you find a good one, I'm sure you can keep the sound you want!

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:12 pm

Since you like the big round sound, you have only one choice: pre-1969 Conn 20k all brass with the offset valves. The 14k would also do, but the throat is smaller than you are used to.

But only get it as an additional horn. It's hard to believe that you are actually having health issues with your PT-6. Find a good doctor and a good teacher and get them together to see what is really happening. You might be able to sort out both the health issue and your technique so that you can continue to enjoy your primary instrument.

XtremeEuph · Post by **XtremeEuph** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:31 pm

Im curious, what is the health issue?

Shockwave · Post by **Shockwave** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:01 pm

Sousaphones sound just like tubas do when you are in a position to look down inside the bell, with the result being that a sousaphone has more "bite" to the sound in an ensemble than a tuba. If you told me that the tuba on that recording was in fact a sousaphone, I would guess that it was a Conn 26k. It's an Eb horn that doesnt weigh very much and can be had pretty cheaply since Eb sousa is an unpopular instrument. The next closest match to that sound would probably be a Conn 14k which is a bit heavier and blattier sounding but can play lower notes.

-Eric

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:47 pm

Like standing up and playing? Getcha a couple of Conn 14K parts horns, a junk Miraphone 186 bell, and a bell flair off an old Olds plastic sousa and build yaself one of these hummers!

As Bloke says... the most bang for your buck in going to be in the 14K/36K sousas.

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:24 am

bloke wrote:A fiberglass sousaphone with a brass bell tends to have the same "ringing" sound that a completely-made-of-brass sousaphone emits.

Is that good, bad or indifferent? I don't care for the ringing so much, myself, but would guess that it bothers only me - not the kind of noise that carries far enough to annoy anyone else.

Ace · Post by **Ace** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:41 am

zoro wrote:You might be able to find a decent European helicon in your area.
A good tuba strap would make playng while standing more secure.
It'd be a shame to damage the PT6 by dancing around with it.
You won't find any sousa or helicon in C.

Amati makes a CC Sousaphone.

http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... phones.htm

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:16 am

If you could find one, I think that the closest thing to that which you are used to would be a Conn 40K, which is a 4 valve BBb the same size as a 20K, but with regular, long action valves, not the short action. More likely to be found would be the 3 valve version, the 38K. I find either to have better intonation tendencies than a 20K. Other than the valves they are essentially the same as the 20K, although some may have smaller bell diameter too.

Udi · Post by **Udi** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:54 am

Hey guys, thanks for all the responses, I feel I should have been a member of this forum a long time ago!
Oric, I'm with you, Youngblood's (former) sousaphonist, Nat Mcintosh is an astounding player and a big inspiration for me. Thanks for the compliment!
iiipopes and XtremeEuph, you're right, I'm not falling apart or something. It's just that carrying such a big weight with my hands (Havn't found a strap I feel omfortable with) makes me stand in an awkward way that I'm sure isn't good for my back. After a few of my last concerts I also found that some of my left hand fingertips, which carries most of the weight, went numb for a day or two

Regarding my embouchure, I find that trying to save a a little effort, I bring my lips to my mouthpice and not the other way around, and also place my mouthpiece very low.
Anyway, maybe all I need is a well designed set of straps.
iiipopes wrote

But only get it as an additional horn

and zoro wrote

It'd be a shame to damage the PT6 by dancing around with it.

I can't say I was thinking of replacing my PT6 completely, though I don't ever play sitting down. I'm a little anxious of dropping the B&S if I start playing a sousaphone.

trseaman · Post by **trseaman** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:30 pm

Conn 40K on Ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/4-VALVES-40K-Satin- ... dZViewItem

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:31 pm

Lew wrote:If you could find one, I think that the closest thing to that which you are used to would be a Conn 40K, which is a 4 valve BBb the same size as a 20K, but with regular, long action valves, not the short action. More likely to be found would be the 3 valve version, the 38K. I find either to have better intonation tendencies than a 20K. Other than the valves they are essentially the same as the 20K, although some may have smaller bell diameter too.

My 40K weighs 30 lbs. There are heavier tubas, and it's surprisingly comfortable, considering, but not a joyous experience over a long haul.The intonation is terrific, by my standards anyway, and with sufficient lung power it has a substantial sound, but I like more of my energy to go into music, and less into carrying the instrument. For me, neither a giant of a man nor a particularly young one, it's possible that even if a fiberglass sousaphone cost me a little in the subtle tonality department, other aspects of my performance might improve enough to compensate. (An academic question, actually playing Eb helicon these days.)

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:35 pm

BTW, great sound!

trseaman · Post by **trseaman** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:40 pm

windshieldbug wrote:BTW, great sound!

I totally agree, very cool sound! I forgot to mention that in my last post about the 40K on Ebay! I've always wanted to start a small band to play similar music but have never hooked up with the right people... Keep it up!

Tim

Udi · Post by **Udi** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:10 pm

Thanks windshieldbug & trseaman, that really warms my heart! Can't say I'm very self assured of my playing right now. I just started working with a new teacher, and she's tough. Your words cheer me up.

Here are comlete two files from Marsh Dondurma's cd, which you heard samples of. The links will stay live for about a week. The first co-written by Tom Dayan and me, the second's mine.
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?a ... D57CAC4F31
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?a ... CB44EFBBFF

They're copyrighted, would deeply thank you if you could avoid spreading them around.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:38 pm

Congratulations on your band plus on your sound and rhythm. To me your tuba and yourself sound like a good match.

I happen to own samples of two of the models suggested, the Connâ€™s 40K and 28K. Both are fine instruments. The 40K is by far the heaviest (far too heavy for your purposes), but the 28K is no lightweight either. And I am not sure, that you will find yourself well served with a 3-valves-only Eb instrument.

You mention having a harness constructed. I have used a baritone sax harness, but found that it stiffened me up a bit too much.

Meinl-Weston makes a harness, which takes up the weight at the bottom bow level without locking up the top of the instrument.

You may also take up inspiration from the bass-drum harness used in my boyhood band: wide leather bands over each shoulder and crossed (with stitches) over the back. If you join all 4 ends at an attachment point at or near the bottom bow, you will have taken the weight off your hands and still keep a lot of freedom to sway and dance.

Supplementary comments:

A Cerveny helicon may be a musically good solution, but it is bulky and the bell cannot be un-mounted for transportation.

I never have tried or heard an Amati sousaphone, which is even remotely acceptably in tune with itself.

Your last two links take a sign-up to a site/company, which is unknown to me.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

Udi · Post by **Udi** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:17 pm

Thank you for your kind words, Klaus. I think I'll take your suggestion and start by finding/making myself and my tuba a good harness.
About those links, they go to a site called yousendit.com, which enables hosting files for a week, to make sending big files easier. On the middle of the page, to the right of that sign up box, you'll find a "download now" button. I assure you it will download my music files and nothing else. No sign up necessary.

Udi.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:16 pm

I agree that for some reason, the taper of the bugle is in better tune throughout the range on a 14k, and its siblings the Cavalier and the Pan American, and the pedal tones are great. You can also redo the upper 1st valve slide to make it movable with your left hand, and I have done so, which eliminates all tuning issues.

Udi · Post by **Udi** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:34 pm

iiipopes wrote:You can also redo the upper 1st valve slide to make it movable with your left hand, and I have done so, which eliminates all tuning issues.

Could you post a photo of this mechanism?

LoyalTubist · Post by **LoyalTubist** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:59 am

richland tuba 01 wrote:Just use a yamaha contra like the drum corps use. They have a much better sound than any sousaphone and most concert tubas.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. The construction is not good for your back--a sousaphone is not much better, but, at least, it is not all on one side of your body. I have played both the drum and bugle corps style of tuba and a sousaphone. The drum and bugle corps instrument seemed to lack something and I personally didn't like the idea of being so directional. Sousaphones have been around for 114 years and they show no sign of going away. Did you know that there was a whole decade that sousaphones (with front-facing bells) were actually the most favored tubas by professional tubists? (1922-31) 99% of the popular music recordings that feature tubas during that time in their ensembles had sousaphones in those places. They were really big instruments back then, but the concept hasn't changed.