York top-action BAT

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:52 am

I've been conversing with the seller of this instrument:

Big York on Ebay

Looks to me like a 1910-1912 Monster BBb Bass (1910 patent date, serial number in the 31000's), in pretty good condition for its age. If I find out more that can be passed along, I'll do so.

Rick "not in the market" Denney

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:35 am

It's an interesting horn. I wonder what the odds are that it will remain in one piece? The bell and bows look like likely candidates for someone wanting parts for a "custom" horn.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:11 pm

harold wrote:Three of the current bidders are well known for buying horns and restoring them and I haven't even started to bid yet.

Well, bidding will have to go high enough to discourage those who would like to refit this horn with a new valveset and cut it to CC. Right now, it's not even close to that price.

Brassdad · Post by **Brassdad** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:40 pm

bloke wrote:I'm preparing my max bid of $7350.00

I believe you are........you'll probably be ready by August.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:32 pm

$3100 or thereabouts. Not enough to eliminate completely the possibility that one of the converters bought it.

Anyone know the buyer?

Rick "noting that the owner was hoping for at least $200" Denney

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:07 pm

YORK-aholic wrote:who had it hanging on the wall of their restaurant for the past 10 or so years

Just as long as they didn't drill holes in it to put screws in it...

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:10 pm

DP wrote:3 grand + for a bell and some branches? That'd be as crazy as keeping it with top pistons and pointing the wrong way!

If you're going to cut the horn and add a new valve block, Dale, top or side action has little bearing on the overall work involved. Regardless, you'll be sending it in for replating; you'll probably ditch the carriage rings anyway.

jacobg · Post by **jacobg** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:52 pm

Cool, lets start a Chinese factory making counterfeit York bells! There's no one around to sue us for infringing at this point.

Based on recent ebay events we have

4valve York front action 1914 BBb $5300+

4valve Conn front action 1914 BBb $1200

3 valve York top action monster BBb 1912 $3100+

3 valve Conn top action monster BBb restored 1920 $1000 but reserve not met

Daniel C. Oberloh · Post by **Daniel C. Oberloh** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:30 am

If you're going to cut the horn and add a new valve block, Dale, top or side action has little bearing on the overall work involved.

Having done this kind of work a time or two and hoping to soon wrap up yet another such project, I am compelled to state that this is complete nonsense. The conversion from top to front is a hell of a lot of mental as well as physical work. If it is to be done correctly, the sixth branch will need serious alterations or a complete new one custom made, additionally there are more braces that will need to be made along with a new mouth-pipe. Fitting the new valve section is a process that can take days to complete.

4/4+ York from the early 30s.

Same instrument as it presently stands on the bench in my shop. Still a bit more to do before it is ready for the platers.

There is much more to be done on top of that already mentioned so I feel it is fare to say that if one is going to purchase such an instrument with the idea of conversion in mind, the cost has to be seriously weighed and considered but on the other hand, if you want a 6/4 BBb York tuba, this is really the only way you can get one and if done right it will end up being a fairly desirable instrument in addition to being quite valuable.

As for cutting the horn to a CC, well that in my opinion, is a sure fire way to ruin a good instrument and just plain stupid.

Daniel C. Oberloh
Repair Technician to the stars (Floyd and Emma Star of Orting Wa.)
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Seattle, WA
206.241.5767
www.oberloh.com

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:49 am

Daniel C. Oberloh wrote:Having done this kind of work a time or two and hoping to soon wrap up yet another such project, I am compelled to state that this is complete nonsense. The conversion from top to front is a hell of a lot of mental as well as physical work.

Dan, I think you misread my drift. Compared to cutting, refitting, replating (and possibly trimming the bell), the top-to-front is just a piece of an already big job. No matter how you slice things, there are many dollars and hours involved in such a job.

As far as being a mistake, I'm not so sure. As a top-action BBb, it'll just be that--mostly doing, what--band duty or part of someone's collection? As a CC, it could see orchestral service.

At least I think Bob Rusk might disagree with your point of view.

...or so I think.

Daniel C. Oberloh · Post by **Daniel C. Oberloh** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:23 am

Hey Chuck,
Thanks for explaining.

As for cutting, Why does it need to be CC to be an orchestra horn? Did some one make a law I did not hear about?:? If it is a great BBb, converting to a CC will most probably deliver an okay or so-so CC at best, it is simply not worth the risk, in my opinion. Besids, Ther are plenty of works that lay on the BBb with ease, and a pro should be able to transpose with no problem, come on boys suck it up and deal!

I have had opportunities to play a number of cut horns and not one of them could hold a candle to my good ol HB-2P or Tony's BBb 345 Holton or even the BBb 6/4 York I reconfigured for a now retired orchestra player some time ago. I am sure Mr. Rusk has delivered some decent cut horns but to date I have not seen or played one that (in my opinion) was worth the risk. And with the old BBb 6/4 instrumets available going for much higher prices, I feel it is more sensible to leave them in BBb for those players looking for a nice orchestral quality American style, front action, .750 bore, 6/4 BBb,(breathe) which are almost impossible to find these days new, unless you can find a manufacturer in Europe that will build you one $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. You want a 6/4 CC that plays fantastic and is in tune and does all the things you need as a player? Simple, pick up the phone and order one. You play BBb? oh, sorry, we don't make those in 6/4.

I have a line of folks looking for just that type of horn.

To some it may be nice to know that I have a number of folks waiting for there old Holtons and Yorks to be rebuilt and or converted, all staying in BBb of corse.

Been a long day, Its late, I'm tired, Time to shut down and go home.

Daniel C. Oberloh

Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Seattle, WA
206.241.5767
www.oberloh.com

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:19 am

Daniel C. Oberloh wrote:As for cutting, Why does it need to be CC to be an orchestra horn? Did some one make a law I did not hear about?:? If it is a great BBb, converting to a CC will most probably deliver an okay or so-so CC at best, it is simply not worth the risk, in my opinion. Besids, Ther are plenty of works that lay on the BBb with ease, and a pro should be able to transpose with no problem, come on boys suck it up and deal!

Dan, you don't have an argument from me, other than what the market will bear. CC and F command top dollar--and I've gotten this from high-school kids who think a tuba's not serious unless in one of those keys. I'm sure we've both seen some wonderful instruments passed by because they were in the "wrong" key.

That being said, I have a great Rusk-cut York CC with remarkable intonation. And it started out as a top-action instrument, but is now a 4+1 front-action model. Good cut horns do exist, although there are a lot of not-so-good ones.

jacobg · Post by **jacobg** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:28 pm

Daniel C. Oberloh wrote:As for cutting, Why does it need to be CC to be an orchestra horn? Did some one make a law I did not hear about?:?

And as for cutting why does it need to be front action? Must be another law. What about all those British guys?

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:21 pm

jacobg wrote:And as for cutting why does it need to be front action? Must be another law. What about all those British guys?

It does make a difference re: projection whether the audience is downrange or not. Upright valves dictate that you're pointing away from the paying customers (barring a bizarre seating scheme).

Wouldn't you rather deposit your resonant velvety goodness directly into the hall?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:42 pm

UncleBeer wrote:Wouldn't you rather deposit your resonant velvety goodness directly into the hall?

You mean we're ready for orchestral sousaphones?

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:45 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:You mean we're ready for orchestral sousaphones?

Heh; Joe was the pioneer with his fly helicon.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:50 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:
UncleBeer wrote:Wouldn't you rather deposit your resonant velvety goodness directly into the hall?
You mean we're ready for orchestral sousaphones?

It is a little known fact that Berlioz often scored for two sousaphones, but since they hadn't been invented yet, he almost always settled for the ophicleides that were at hand!